5 ms·

You speak as if Europe has a choice in accepting refugees. I believe the last few weeks in particular show that this choice does not exist. They will come, and

by Zirro 11y ago

You speak as if Europe has a choice in accepting refugees. I believe the last few weeks in particular show that this choice does not exist. They will come, and we will have to do the best we can out of the situation.

Animats 11y ago
Hungary just closed their border. They put up over a hundred miles of fence on their border with Serbia, backed up by police and troops.[1] [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/15/us-europe-migrants-idUSKCN0RD0P420150915 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/15/us-europe-migrants...
bordercases 11y ago
They do! Germany, the UK and the Scandinavian nations are the only European countries (that I was aware of circa within the week) to be actively accepting Syrian refugees - every other country in between them AND the Mediterranean have had negative responses to incoming refugees and I would expect deportation. If refugees were just coming in for safety's sake, there are plenty of other Islamic countries that would be more culturally compatible (that argument would fail in the case of Syrian Christians; I don't know the full proportion of real religious denomination to refugee count). There are plenty of European countries that want no business with refugees, like Hungary, who have just declared martial law in the last few days or so wrt refugees. It's a choice. It's a hard choice, one which tangles several levels of liberal beliefs of tolerance in a democratic state and respecting a country's historical/ethnic heritage, which is why I think there is so much controversy. I personally don't see how any country in Europe is obliged to accept refugees.
- atmosx 11y ago
  Germany is closing it's borders: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/14/refugees-confounded-merkel-close-german-borders http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/14/refugees-confou... They do! (close the borders).
  - netrus 11y ago
    Pssst, don't tell any Syrian friend, but we only pretend to close the borders. We only control the Autobahn-routes, not the smaller streets, and we control miles behind the border, meaning that refugees are already in Germany and can stay. Germany tries to create pictures to discourage people from coming, while behaving the same to those who come. It is an interesting approach, and I am not sure yet how I feel about it.
- varjag 11y ago
  All obligations people have to each other boil down to moral obligations. Barbarism and conquest age societies were much more rational than modernity, with little formalities or attachment of value to human life. So it comes with a territory of living in a civil society. Europe espouses a particular set of humanitarian values and has to act correspondingly. It is in European law (being UNCHR members for a start), tradition and customs of education. It is what constitutes modern Europe. Now I personally would rather seen Assad dealt with in timely manner, years ago, instead of drawing stupid red lines in the water. This would have prevented the humanitarian disaster propelling the refugee crisis today, and would have hindered the raise of ISIS to boot. Since we can not change the past though, I'm OK with helping people survive with my tax money.
  - levosmetalo 11y ago
    > Now I personally would rather seen Assad dealt with in timely manner, years ago, instead of drawing stupid red lines in the water. This would have prevented the humanitarian disaster propelling the refugee crisis today, and would have hindered the raise of ISIS to boot. Since we can change the past though, I'm OK with helping people survive with my tax money. Please don't mess with Syria anymore, and don't try to help with "your tax money". Syria was fine, at least compared to current situation, before West started meddling with the middle east and forcing democracy there. ISIS started as a response of destroyed country (Iraq) without actual rule, that was brought in such state because of western occupation. Then, it was even armed and supported by the "west" as a "moderate islamistic democratic opposition" to Assad regime. The rest is history, and we didn't learn anything from it. Just leave the middle east alone, as well as the rest of the world. Don't try to bring your values and way of life to them. Don't try to "help" them. Let them do it themselves on their own pace when they are ready for it. It's obvious right now they lived much better under any dictator that now, with all the "western" support.
    - varjag 11y ago
      > Please don't mess with Syria anymore, and don't try to help with "your tax money". By helping with tax money I meant supporting the refugees, so. No. > Syria was fine, at least compared to current situation, before West started meddling with the middle east and forcing democracy there. It wasn't the West who massacred an unarmed protest with an airstrike back in the day. > ISIS started as a response of destroyed country (Iraq) without actual rule, that was brought in such state because of western occupation. Newsflash: the occupation of Iraq was opposed by most of the "West". > Just leave the middle east alone, as well as the rest of the world. Rwanda was left alone, oh look how wonderfully that worked. No, my dear friend, there's no one recipe that fits the world, neither tree-hugging nor warmongering.
- iaskwhy 11y ago
  > "Germany, the UK and the Scandinavian nations are the only European countries (that I was aware of circa within the week) to be actively accepting Syrian refugees" You might need to inform yourself a bit better as most European countries have been accepting Syrian refugees[0]. Germany is now leading the effort to give documents to the new arrivals but in the upcoming weeks a part of them will be sent to different locations around Europe. Pretty much all countries' newspapers have been reporting this (in regards to its numbers and locations). [0] http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_quarterly_report http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...

by Zirro 11y ago

Animats 11y ago

Hungary just closed their border. They put up over a hundred miles of fence on their border with Serbia, backed up by police and troops.[1] [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/15/us-europe-migrants-idUSKCN0RD0P420150915 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/15/us-europe-migrants...

bordercases 11y ago

They do! Germany, the UK and the Scandinavian nations are the only European countries (that I was aware of circa within the week) to be actively accepting Syrian refugees - every other country in between them AND the Mediterranean have had negative responses to incoming refugees and I would expect deportation. If refugees were just coming in for safety's sake, there are plenty of other Islamic countries that would be more culturally compatible (that argument would fail in the case of Syrian Christians; I don't know the full proportion of real religious denomination to refugee count). There are plenty of European countries that want no business with refugees, like Hungary, who have just declared martial law in the last few days or so wrt refugees. It's a choice. It's a hard choice, one which tangles several levels of liberal beliefs of tolerance in a democratic state and respecting a country's historical/ethnic heritage, which is why I think there is so much controversy. I personally don't see how any country in Europe is obliged to accept refugees.

atmosx 11y ago
Germany is closing it's borders: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/14/refugees-confounded-merkel-close-german-borders http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/14/refugees-confou... They do! (close the borders).
- netrus 11y ago
  Pssst, don't tell any Syrian friend, but we only pretend to close the borders. We only control the Autobahn-routes, not the smaller streets, and we control miles behind the border, meaning that refugees are already in Germany and can stay. Germany tries to create pictures to discourage people from coming, while behaving the same to those who come. It is an interesting approach, and I am not sure yet how I feel about it.
varjag 11y ago
All obligations people have to each other boil down to moral obligations. Barbarism and conquest age societies were much more rational than modernity, with little formalities or attachment of value to human life. So it comes with a territory of living in a civil society. Europe espouses a particular set of humanitarian values and has to act correspondingly. It is in European law (being UNCHR members for a start), tradition and customs of education. It is what constitutes modern Europe. Now I personally would rather seen Assad dealt with in timely manner, years ago, instead of drawing stupid red lines in the water. This would have prevented the humanitarian disaster propelling the refugee crisis today, and would have hindered the raise of ISIS to boot. Since we can not change the past though, I'm OK with helping people survive with my tax money.
- levosmetalo 11y ago
  > Now I personally would rather seen Assad dealt with in timely manner, years ago, instead of drawing stupid red lines in the water. This would have prevented the humanitarian disaster propelling the refugee crisis today, and would have hindered the raise of ISIS to boot. Since we can change the past though, I'm OK with helping people survive with my tax money. Please don't mess with Syria anymore, and don't try to help with "your tax money". Syria was fine, at least compared to current situation, before West started meddling with the middle east and forcing democracy there. ISIS started as a response of destroyed country (Iraq) without actual rule, that was brought in such state because of western occupation. Then, it was even armed and supported by the "west" as a "moderate islamistic democratic opposition" to Assad regime. The rest is history, and we didn't learn anything from it. Just leave the middle east alone, as well as the rest of the world. Don't try to bring your values and way of life to them. Don't try to "help" them. Let them do it themselves on their own pace when they are ready for it. It's obvious right now they lived much better under any dictator that now, with all the "western" support.
  - varjag 11y ago
    > Please don't mess with Syria anymore, and don't try to help with "your tax money". By helping with tax money I meant supporting the refugees, so. No. > Syria was fine, at least compared to current situation, before West started meddling with the middle east and forcing democracy there. It wasn't the West who massacred an unarmed protest with an airstrike back in the day. > ISIS started as a response of destroyed country (Iraq) without actual rule, that was brought in such state because of western occupation. Newsflash: the occupation of Iraq was opposed by most of the "West". > Just leave the middle east alone, as well as the rest of the world. Rwanda was left alone, oh look how wonderfully that worked. No, my dear friend, there's no one recipe that fits the world, neither tree-hugging nor warmongering.
iaskwhy 11y ago
> "Germany, the UK and the Scandinavian nations are the only European countries (that I was aware of circa within the week) to be actively accepting Syrian refugees" You might need to inform yourself a bit better as most European countries have been accepting Syrian refugees[0]. Germany is now leading the effort to give documents to the new arrivals but in the upcoming weeks a part of them will be sent to different locations around Europe. Pretty much all countries' newspapers have been reporting this (in regards to its numbers and locations). [0] http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_quarterly_report http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...