4 ms·

There's appropriate and inappropriate types of this: worked till midnight, absolutely flag it and come in late; left early yesterday, rocked in after WIP today

by grrowl 11y ago

There's appropriate and inappropriate types of this: worked till midnight, absolutely flag it and come in late; left early yesterday, rocked in after WIP today without notification, probably not okay.

dmitrygr 11y ago
why? If i am still delivering what I must, and not missing any actual meetings, why do you care? Just the desire for the thrill of forcing your idea of what a workday is unto me?
- saryant 11y ago
  The key difference seems to be communication.
- nitrogen 11y ago
  Right, strict punctuality for punctuality's sake alone is counterproductive. If you want results, measure results. If you want butts in chairs, measure that. But don't confuse the two. There are some highly talented developers with great interpersonal skills who just happen to have e.g. delayed sleep phase. They might leave "early" to have a normal evening with family or run errands, but then work more at night while they're awake with time to burn.
  - geoelectric 11y ago
    The compromise I've seen at many places is a set of core meeting hours, say from 10am to 4pm, where you're expected to be available for scheduled appts and expected to usually try to be around for unscheduled ones. Of course, that doesn't accommodate people with severe delayed phase or whatnot, but often that stuff can either be worked out either on a team-by-team basis or arranged as part of the hire. Or maybe you only enforce the "scheduled" part, and put a "24 hours in advance minimum" on it to keep things humane. The important thing is to get team expectations in place. What doesn't really work is "around whenever they feel like it," assuming there's any inter-team dependency at all. Even with an email SLA, that gets obstructive pretty quickly.
  - randomguy7788 11y ago
    +1 this. I am one of these people and i work till 2am regularly and i wish companies understood this more. Thankfully my past 2 jobs have been very relaxed with me coming in to work late.
  - vacri 11y ago
    You're moving the goalposts. The original quote of "coming in late and/or leaving very early" has somehow turned into "strict punctuality"...
  - wtbob 11y ago
    > Right, strict punctuality for punctuality's sake alone is counterproductive. It has the virtue of assuring that we are all available in person to one another, which is actually pretty valuable.
    - nitrogen 11y ago
      In my experience, 8 hours of face-to-face overlap actually makes me significantly less productive due to distractions. I can always get more done when it's more like 4-5, with 4-5 undistracted. Better yet is a remote work day. People can still contact each other via Slack, Mumble, Hangouts, etc.
      - wtbob 11y ago
        > In my experience, 8 hours of face-to-face overlap actually makes me significantly less productive due to distractions. In my own experience, those distractions are mostly due to open-plan and cubicle-farm offices. Given a proper one-man office, with a door, it's very easy to be productive.
- smtddr 11y ago
  If you wanna telecommute on some days, or need a modified schedule besides the standard 9-to-5, you should just arrange for that. Having coworkers just showing up and leaving at any random time during the day I think messes with morale/vibe of the office. And as another commentor pointed out, communication. I like to know the general time-range I can find an employee to speak to. I'm old-school and still appreciate face-to-face time over online tools. If the expectation is set at the beginning that "Jane is a telecommuter Mon,Wed,Fri". Ok, that's fine. I don't like the idea of "Jane just shows up whenever she wants to, but she's getting her JIRA tickets done within the sprints and shows up to meetings". Basically, while schedules definitely don't need to be rigid... they also shouldn't be fully impromptu either. If you're not telecommuting, I believe it is valuable to be physically around during office hours.
  - hueving 11y ago
    >I'm old-school and still appreciate face-to-face time over online tools. a.k.a you like to interrupt people on a whim. Show some respect and just schedule a meeting.
    - eropple 11y ago
      Impromptu meetings are clearly a sign of disrespect, you sure got him there! Reducing human interaction to schedules and timetables is one of the worse social diseases of this profession and I am personally very much done with playing nice with the people who wish to coddle them. Your coworkers are no less important than you are, and sometimes they have the temerity to need you for a human interaction at a time not in your calendar. I am certain you and your precious, all-self-important flow can deal with it.
      - hueving 11y ago
        Interrupting someone because you have a question is terrible for knowledge workers. If you can't wait long enough to ping them on IM or send an email, something is very wrong in your workflow.
- lfowles 11y ago
  "Not missing any actual meretings". There will be meetings you are not a core participant in but it would still be beneficial for you to be present. Will you leave the planners wondering if you will be in at all? Vs having core hours where there's a good guarantee everyone necessary is in barring vacation/unplanned leave?
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    Too many of those meetings though and your productivity is shot anyways. It really depends on how noisy the open office is, I guess.
- kohanz 11y ago
  If you work in complete isolation, sure, but that's not reality for most. There are times when you need to communicate with others, in-person, beyond scheduled meetings. What do you do when that person is not in yet? You wait. What about if they left early? If every single person in the office decided on a custom, non-overlapping schedule, how productive do you think that would be? Unless you're open to answering e-mails and IMs at home and on the go at all hours.
  - perfTerm 11y ago
    Yea I was working for a company for a very short period which was focused on autonomy. The texts, emails, and slack messages as early as 7, as late as midnight, on saturday, on sunday. It drove me crazy to say the least as someone who, ironicly enough, valued his own autonomy very greatly. That didn't last long.
- 7Figures2Commas 11y ago
  Think beyond yourself. In a team environment, there are times at which other team members will need to communicate with you to get their work done. If you're working on a different, arbitrary schedule, you can impede your team members. If you want true flexibility and control over your schedule, the best option is to become a freelancer or consultant. But keep in mind that in many cases your clients will also have expectations around your schedule and availability.
  - mden 11y ago
    I can't see that being too much of a problem if you use the concept of "core hours" during which everyone should be available. Say, make core hours be 10am to 4pm. For anything else, email should be sufficient, imo.
- PerfectElement 11y ago
  Exactly. Every time I see this micromanagement culture I'm reminded that this is actually the norm and I should be grateful for working in a sane place, where I'm not treated like a child.

by grrowl 11y ago

dmitrygr 11y ago

why? If i am still delivering what I must, and not missing any actual meetings, why do you care? Just the desire for the thrill of forcing your idea of what a workday is unto me?

saryant 11y ago
The key difference seems to be communication.
nitrogen 11y ago
Right, strict punctuality for punctuality's sake alone is counterproductive. If you want results, measure results. If you want butts in chairs, measure that. But don't confuse the two. There are some highly talented developers with great interpersonal skills who just happen to have e.g. delayed sleep phase. They might leave "early" to have a normal evening with family or run errands, but then work more at night while they're awake with time to burn.
- geoelectric 11y ago
  The compromise I've seen at many places is a set of core meeting hours, say from 10am to 4pm, where you're expected to be available for scheduled appts and expected to usually try to be around for unscheduled ones. Of course, that doesn't accommodate people with severe delayed phase or whatnot, but often that stuff can either be worked out either on a team-by-team basis or arranged as part of the hire. Or maybe you only enforce the "scheduled" part, and put a "24 hours in advance minimum" on it to keep things humane. The important thing is to get team expectations in place. What doesn't really work is "around whenever they feel like it," assuming there's any inter-team dependency at all. Even with an email SLA, that gets obstructive pretty quickly.
- randomguy7788 11y ago
  +1 this. I am one of these people and i work till 2am regularly and i wish companies understood this more. Thankfully my past 2 jobs have been very relaxed with me coming in to work late.
- vacri 11y ago
  You're moving the goalposts. The original quote of "coming in late and/or leaving very early" has somehow turned into "strict punctuality"...
- wtbob 11y ago
  > Right, strict punctuality for punctuality's sake alone is counterproductive. It has the virtue of assuring that we are all available in person to one another, which is actually pretty valuable.
  - nitrogen 11y ago
    In my experience, 8 hours of face-to-face overlap actually makes me significantly less productive due to distractions. I can always get more done when it's more like 4-5, with 4-5 undistracted. Better yet is a remote work day. People can still contact each other via Slack, Mumble, Hangouts, etc.
    - wtbob 11y ago
      > In my experience, 8 hours of face-to-face overlap actually makes me significantly less productive due to distractions. In my own experience, those distractions are mostly due to open-plan and cubicle-farm offices. Given a proper one-man office, with a door, it's very easy to be productive.
smtddr 11y ago
If you wanna telecommute on some days, or need a modified schedule besides the standard 9-to-5, you should just arrange for that. Having coworkers just showing up and leaving at any random time during the day I think messes with morale/vibe of the office. And as another commentor pointed out, communication. I like to know the general time-range I can find an employee to speak to. I'm old-school and still appreciate face-to-face time over online tools. If the expectation is set at the beginning that "Jane is a telecommuter Mon,Wed,Fri". Ok, that's fine. I don't like the idea of "Jane just shows up whenever she wants to, but she's getting her JIRA tickets done within the sprints and shows up to meetings". Basically, while schedules definitely don't need to be rigid... they also shouldn't be fully impromptu either. If you're not telecommuting, I believe it is valuable to be physically around during office hours.
- hueving 11y ago
  >I'm old-school and still appreciate face-to-face time over online tools. a.k.a you like to interrupt people on a whim. Show some respect and just schedule a meeting.
  - eropple 11y ago
    Impromptu meetings are clearly a sign of disrespect, you sure got him there! Reducing human interaction to schedules and timetables is one of the worse social diseases of this profession and I am personally very much done with playing nice with the people who wish to coddle them. Your coworkers are no less important than you are, and sometimes they have the temerity to need you for a human interaction at a time not in your calendar. I am certain you and your precious, all-self-important flow can deal with it.
    - hueving 11y ago
      Interrupting someone because you have a question is terrible for knowledge workers. If you can't wait long enough to ping them on IM or send an email, something is very wrong in your workflow.
lfowles 11y ago
"Not missing any actual meretings". There will be meetings you are not a core participant in but it would still be beneficial for you to be present. Will you leave the planners wondering if you will be in at all? Vs having core hours where there's a good guarantee everyone necessary is in barring vacation/unplanned leave?
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  Too many of those meetings though and your productivity is shot anyways. It really depends on how noisy the open office is, I guess.
kohanz 11y ago
If you work in complete isolation, sure, but that's not reality for most. There are times when you need to communicate with others, in-person, beyond scheduled meetings. What do you do when that person is not in yet? You wait. What about if they left early? If every single person in the office decided on a custom, non-overlapping schedule, how productive do you think that would be? Unless you're open to answering e-mails and IMs at home and on the go at all hours.
- perfTerm 11y ago
  Yea I was working for a company for a very short period which was focused on autonomy. The texts, emails, and slack messages as early as 7, as late as midnight, on saturday, on sunday. It drove me crazy to say the least as someone who, ironicly enough, valued his own autonomy very greatly. That didn't last long.
7Figures2Commas 11y ago
Think beyond yourself. In a team environment, there are times at which other team members will need to communicate with you to get their work done. If you're working on a different, arbitrary schedule, you can impede your team members. If you want true flexibility and control over your schedule, the best option is to become a freelancer or consultant. But keep in mind that in many cases your clients will also have expectations around your schedule and availability.
- mden 11y ago
  I can't see that being too much of a problem if you use the concept of "core hours" during which everyone should be available. Say, make core hours be 10am to 4pm. For anything else, email should be sufficient, imo.
PerfectElement 11y ago
Exactly. Every time I see this micromanagement culture I'm reminded that this is actually the norm and I should be grateful for working in a sane place, where I'm not treated like a child.