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I would love to see some discussion around this as well. I have been playing with Apache Corodova and Windows 10 SDK lately and they look very promising. Being

by nabaraz 11y ago

I would love to see some discussion around this as well. I have been playing with Apache Corodova and Windows 10 SDK lately and they look very promising. Being a web developer, I found them to be easy to get started. Are there complex apps built using phonegap/swift/cordova? What are the limitations? I know Facebook tried with a 'web app' approach and reverted back to native solution. But that was years ago.

o_____________o 11y ago
Using Cordova, you will always be behind any and all Mobile Safari WebKit et al bugs. This not a big deal when pushing layout around a webpage, but it can be crippling for app development as the app grows in complexity and you crave native-quality interactions. Mobile Safari's Webkit implementation has a staggering list of severe bugs. Developing under it can become a nightmare of hacks and backpedaling. Been working on Cordova nearly full time for two years now. So much wasted time. React Native is a big deal, and is very different.
- cbsmith 11y ago
  More accurately: with Cordova, you will always be behind on iOS.
  - jbigelow76 11y ago
    I don't know about React Native, but Telerik's open source project NativeScript promises to always have 0 day support of all native platform features since it's reflecting over the native platform's libraries to expose to its own API. React Native and NativeScript seem to have all the upside of Cordova (transference of web dev skills to native platforms) with none of the downsides (lag in new OS feature implementation, webview wrapped apps), I wonder if Cordova's days of relevance are numbered.
  - lewisl9029 11y ago
    Speaking as a web developer, this is sad, but true. However, what's even sadder to me is the fact this continues to be true despite the fact that, believe it or not, the web has been the platform where most of the innovation in UI development paradigms has been taking place in the past few years. And I don't just mean in terms of the sheer number of new things coming out. The web community pioneered UI development paradigms involving functional programming techniques and immutable data, and have brought its benefits to other platforms (through projects like React Native). I personally would never want to go back to the old way of building UIs. And I suspect I'll feel the same way about client-centric data fetching when I get to try out Relay/GraphQL, Falcor, Om Next, etc in production. I really want Firefox OS to be successful for this exact reason. I don't want to have to make compromises between the best experience for my users and the best experience for myself as a developer. With a platform that makes web the native UI technology, we shouldn't have to make this compromise in theory, but Firefox OS's execution thus far has left much to be desired.
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      I don't believe it. As someone with lots of native UI experience, that has to occasionally support web projects, the web is just plain clunky and playing catch up with the RAD tooling we enjoy since the mid-90 on native platforms.
      - lewisl9029 11y ago
        I was mostly referring to development paradigms and methodology in my original post, but in terms of tooling, I personally haven't see any tooling on the native side even approach the increased productivity provided by the instantaneous feedback loops that countless hot-reload implementations can offer for the web. https://github.com/gaearon/babel-plugin-react-transform/ https://github.com/gaearon/babel-plugin-react-transform/ http://gaearon.github.io/react-hot-loader/ http://gaearon.github.io/react-hot-loader/ https://github.com/bhauman/lein-figwheel https://github.com/bhauman/lein-figwheel
        mixmastamyk 11y ago
        I've done similar with inotify (dnotify before that) and Python now for over a decade, and it is an interface than can automate anything. I use it with doc generators also. I believe I used something similar called fam in the 90's but that may have only been on SGI.
        lewisl9029 11y ago
        Filesystem watching is only part of the equation though. Live reload has been available for the web and various other platforms for a long time, but the traditional approach to live reloading does not preserve application state. These new hot reload implementation allows your app to be reloaded with your new changes without affecting the state of the application, and is not practical unless your application has been developed with a focus on functional techniques and careful management of application state. This probably doesn't sound like a significant difference, but in practice, it is a huge boost to productivity, especially in a non-trivial app where reloading the entire app and then reproducing the app state manually with every file change can become quite tedious.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- GrinningFool 11y ago
  > This not a big deal when pushing layout around a webpage, > but it can be crippling for app development as the app > grows in complexity and you crave native-quality > interactions Even on the fastest phones, web-based (including wrapped web components) simply don't offer the native experience. They come close, but there's always a slight but perceptible performance difference; and often a visual difference depending on what you're using. I realize people really like the theoretical write-once behavior that you get for simple apps when using a javascript platform, but I've been waiting for years for web-based interactions to provide native quality - and I begin to suspect we'll never get there. If you want native-quality interactions, the only solution is a native application and not common tooling via a javascript layer that runs atop the already not-as-performant-for-UI browser level. This makes your life harder as a developer, but gives your users the best possible experience for their platform. Alternatively, if you're willing to give your users a good-but-less-than-native-quality experience, that's the niche filled by those tools.
  - windsurfer 11y ago
    > Even on the fastest phones, web-based (including wrapped web components) simply don't offer the native experience. They come close, but there's always a slight but perceptible performance difference Honestly I used to believe this, but not after the release of the iPhone 5 and 6. Though there is no perceptible difference, it takes a lot of work to mimic the UI in terms of animations, opacity, and response actions, so most apps just use the default web technology which include things like a built-in 300ms delay, no response to clicking a link, etc.
    - SomeCallMeTim 11y ago
      > it takes a lot of work to mimic the UI in terms of animations, opacity, and response actions, Which is already done for you in Ionic -- including disabling the 300ms delay.
    - kbutler 11y ago
      I'd like to believe that, but can you cite some web-app or webview-based example applications?
matthewrhoden1 11y ago
Sworkit was supposed to be an example of a complex app for ionic, not sure what else is out there. I've used that app and can say it seems pretty solid (no crashing, locking up my phone, etc.) http://blog.ionic.io/built-with-ionic-sworkit/ http://blog.ionic.io/built-with-ionic-sworkit/ I did a pet project using the vibration feature and it worked pretty well, but haven't tried on an iphone. I can't speak for pushing the limits of the hardware though.

by nabaraz 11y ago

o_____________o 11y ago

Using Cordova, you will always be behind any and all Mobile Safari WebKit et al bugs. This not a big deal when pushing layout around a webpage, but it can be crippling for app development as the app grows in complexity and you crave native-quality interactions. Mobile Safari's Webkit implementation has a staggering list of severe bugs. Developing under it can become a nightmare of hacks and backpedaling. Been working on Cordova nearly full time for two years now. So much wasted time. React Native is a big deal, and is very different.

cbsmith 11y ago
More accurately: with Cordova, you will always be behind on iOS.
- jbigelow76 11y ago
  I don't know about React Native, but Telerik's open source project NativeScript promises to always have 0 day support of all native platform features since it's reflecting over the native platform's libraries to expose to its own API. React Native and NativeScript seem to have all the upside of Cordova (transference of web dev skills to native platforms) with none of the downsides (lag in new OS feature implementation, webview wrapped apps), I wonder if Cordova's days of relevance are numbered.
- lewisl9029 11y ago
  Speaking as a web developer, this is sad, but true. However, what's even sadder to me is the fact this continues to be true despite the fact that, believe it or not, the web has been the platform where most of the innovation in UI development paradigms has been taking place in the past few years. And I don't just mean in terms of the sheer number of new things coming out. The web community pioneered UI development paradigms involving functional programming techniques and immutable data, and have brought its benefits to other platforms (through projects like React Native). I personally would never want to go back to the old way of building UIs. And I suspect I'll feel the same way about client-centric data fetching when I get to try out Relay/GraphQL, Falcor, Om Next, etc in production. I really want Firefox OS to be successful for this exact reason. I don't want to have to make compromises between the best experience for my users and the best experience for myself as a developer. With a platform that makes web the native UI technology, we shouldn't have to make this compromise in theory, but Firefox OS's execution thus far has left much to be desired.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    I don't believe it. As someone with lots of native UI experience, that has to occasionally support web projects, the web is just plain clunky and playing catch up with the RAD tooling we enjoy since the mid-90 on native platforms.
    - lewisl9029 11y ago
      I was mostly referring to development paradigms and methodology in my original post, but in terms of tooling, I personally haven't see any tooling on the native side even approach the increased productivity provided by the instantaneous feedback loops that countless hot-reload implementations can offer for the web. https://github.com/gaearon/babel-plugin-react-transform/ https://github.com/gaearon/babel-plugin-react-transform/ http://gaearon.github.io/react-hot-loader/ http://gaearon.github.io/react-hot-loader/ https://github.com/bhauman/lein-figwheel https://github.com/bhauman/lein-figwheel
      - mixmastamyk 11y ago
        I've done similar with inotify (dnotify before that) and Python now for over a decade, and it is an interface than can automate anything. I use it with doc generators also. I believe I used something similar called fam in the 90's but that may have only been on SGI.
        lewisl9029 11y ago
        Filesystem watching is only part of the equation though. Live reload has been available for the web and various other platforms for a long time, but the traditional approach to live reloading does not preserve application state. These new hot reload implementation allows your app to be reloaded with your new changes without affecting the state of the application, and is not practical unless your application has been developed with a focus on functional techniques and careful management of application state. This probably doesn't sound like a significant difference, but in practice, it is a huge boost to productivity, especially in a non-trivial app where reloading the entire app and then reproducing the app state manually with every file change can become quite tedious.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
GrinningFool 11y ago
> This not a big deal when pushing layout around a webpage, > but it can be crippling for app development as the app > grows in complexity and you crave native-quality > interactions Even on the fastest phones, web-based (including wrapped web components) simply don't offer the native experience. They come close, but there's always a slight but perceptible performance difference; and often a visual difference depending on what you're using. I realize people really like the theoretical write-once behavior that you get for simple apps when using a javascript platform, but I've been waiting for years for web-based interactions to provide native quality - and I begin to suspect we'll never get there. If you want native-quality interactions, the only solution is a native application and not common tooling via a javascript layer that runs atop the already not-as-performant-for-UI browser level. This makes your life harder as a developer, but gives your users the best possible experience for their platform. Alternatively, if you're willing to give your users a good-but-less-than-native-quality experience, that's the niche filled by those tools.
- windsurfer 11y ago
  > Even on the fastest phones, web-based (including wrapped web components) simply don't offer the native experience. They come close, but there's always a slight but perceptible performance difference Honestly I used to believe this, but not after the release of the iPhone 5 and 6. Though there is no perceptible difference, it takes a lot of work to mimic the UI in terms of animations, opacity, and response actions, so most apps just use the default web technology which include things like a built-in 300ms delay, no response to clicking a link, etc.
  - SomeCallMeTim 11y ago
    > it takes a lot of work to mimic the UI in terms of animations, opacity, and response actions, Which is already done for you in Ionic -- including disabling the 300ms delay.
  - kbutler 11y ago
    I'd like to believe that, but can you cite some web-app or webview-based example applications?

matthewrhoden1 11y ago

Sworkit was supposed to be an example of a complex app for ionic, not sure what else is out there. I've used that app and can say it seems pretty solid (no crashing, locking up my phone, etc.) http://blog.ionic.io/built-with-ionic-sworkit/ http://blog.ionic.io/built-with-ionic-sworkit/ I did a pet project using the vibration feature and it worked pretty well, but haven't tried on an iphone. I can't speak for pushing the limits of the hardware though.