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Regarding this: "Collect all people in a circle; you might want to start with a moment of mindfulness (try e.g. the app Insight Timer and chose one of the shor

by mbrock 11y ago

Regarding this: "Collect all people in a circle; you might want to start with a moment of mindfulness (try e.g. the app Insight Timer and chose one of the shorter guided meditations)." I meditate and even use that specific app, though only as a timer... and I still would never impose a guided meditation on visitors to my home who are there to work. It borders on religious proselytizing. "A good one to start a Hoffice day is e.g. 'Being Infinite'." I don't know anything about the content of that, but I have a hard time seeing how it would be appropriate for a secular, professional gettogether of strangers from different backgrounds. If I went to a Hoffice thing and the host put on a guided meditation about "being infinite," I would maybe join because sitting quietly for a while is nice... but I wouldn't come back. If I want to meditate on infinity, I'll go to a temple, or sit on my bench at home, thank you.

rodgerd 11y ago
Makes me wonder if they're tied up with one of the permutations of Landmark or The Forum or suchlike.
- hoodoof 11y ago
  Scientology maybe? Or the Knights Templar?
lectrick 11y ago
Meditation is as secular as informally promoting Apple Macbooks. There's plenty of science to back up the advantages of meditation, which you are free to Google. It is no longer religious hokum.
- tikhonj 11y ago
  And starting a professional gathering with a structured discussion of the benefits of Apple Macbooks also "borders on religious proselytizing". "Have you let Steve Jobs into your life?" The point is that the suggestion comes on too strong, with an analogy to religion, not that meditation and religion are inextricably connected.
- mbrock 11y ago
  Well, I'm confident you could find science that demonstrates positive physiological effects of prayer, too. Sitting quietly and relaxing or focusing the mind is nice, which is why I do sitting meditation frequently. I just don't want to do it in an unrelated group setting, along with a dharma talk that I can almost guarantee ventures into some kind of metaphysical or spiritual territory. Probably the "Hoffice" thing just isn't my cup of tea. The suggested break activities also include giving each other massages, doing "goofy" workouts, and some eye contact exercise that seems kind of creepy.
  - lectrick 11y ago
    > Well, I'm confident you could find science that demonstrates positive physiological effects of prayer, too. No. No, you cannot. At least, I've never heard of any. Stop begging the question. > The suggested break activities also include giving each other massages, doing "goofy" workouts, and some eye contact exercise that seems kind of creepy. I would agree that those are a little weird.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Meditation isn't religious hokum. The way meditation is delivered means it's frequently accompanied with religious hokum. That's a shame. Many people would benefit from meditation but are put off by the considerable amounts of woo that go with it.
mbrock 11y ago
By the way, I say this as someone who is delighted to attend retreats that start every morning with a chanted invocation to the goddess of compassion along with the ritualized beating of a large fish-shaped drum, and two hours of sitting meditation before breakfast. Religious gatherings are cool. Working in a "spiritual" environment is nice. On such retreats I especially like the part where you work quietly, together, without talking... and I like how there are formal breaks for tea. I definitely think workplaces can take inspiration from monastic communities. But this just seems awkward. I realize I'm just talking about a little tip from whoever put up the website. I'd rather watch a video of a kitten in a box or something. Kittens are infinite too!
- dubcanada 11y ago
  You're not really talking about "Religious gatherings" you are talking about a specific "Religions, gathering". There are some very nice religious fuelled gatherings that lead to nice things like taking breaks, working quietly and all that other stuff. There are also some that don't.
- fit2rule 11y ago
  It seems like you'd be awkward because, well .. don't take this the wrong way .. you're making it more awkward than it is. A moment of mindfulness isn't just some human activity relegated to religious association; we all do it, even the most atheistic and scientific-minded people will pause at the beginning of a group activity to have a moment before proceeding. All this copy for Hoffice is doing, is expressing it in their own language. Is this something you'd really discriminate against the Hoffice participants for doing? Then for sure, its a good thing you've raised the issue. My advice: Inform the hosts in advance if you have zero tolerance for cultural interaction.
  - mbrock 11y ago
    Sure. Although I'm specifically talking about sitting together listening to meditation talks, for example one about "being infinity." That sounds kind of trippy, and not like something I'd normally tune into right before going to work, but that's just my preference. Maybe it's just that I'm an awkward guy? A bunch of people upvoted my comment, seemingly in agreement, so presumably at least some subset of the Hacker News community is awkward in this way. I did sort of get the feeling that the Hoffice "spirit" catered to a type of extraversion that I don't have, for example I stay away from anything that involves "fun group activities" and massages from strangers. I still like to hang around people, drink coffee, talk about stuff, work. So it's not that I have "zero tolerance for cultural interaction."
hoodoof 11y ago
Agreed. The Hoffice idea is solid. It doesn't need airy fairy advice on how to work or relax.
rwinn 11y ago
It's not imposed. "But even though there is a structure, you are very welcome to ignore it, keep working while the others take breaks, come and go whenever you want. The structure is there to help us, not to limit us."
- DanBC 11y ago
  (I'm not sure why you got downvoted.) The hoffice model means you can look for hoffices that provide a guided meditation or, equally, actively avoid those hoffices. Or you could host your own hoffice that doesn't provide that stuff.
imaginenore 11y ago
Meditation is not religion-only. If anything, religions hijacked it and branded it as "spiritual", " connecting with God" or some other nonsense. Sam Harris is big in meditation, and he is as secular as it gets. http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/how-to-meditate http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/how-to-meditate
- mbrock 11y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean by "secular as it gets." Sure, he writes books denouncing organized religion... at least the ones he dislikes... so did U.G. Krishnamurti. He makes the claim that the meditation techniques of Theravada Buddhism can be taught in a secular way, and he probably has a point. He recommends books by Buddhist teachers, since he believes that Buddhism is a kind of scientific spirituality... and Buddhist retreat centers, since those places are the only "serious" places where meditation is taught. He attributes his capacity as a spiritual teacher to the long Buddhist retreats he did in India and Nepal. Some of his insight also came through psychedelic drugs. He also recommends books by Terence McKenna and Rick Strassman. He's an interesting and well-spoken guy, but I wouldn't exactly call him an icon of secular reason. If Noam Chomsky ever records a guided meditation, though... that would be interesting.
  - imaginenore 11y ago
    Buddhism is not even a religion under most dictionary definitions. There are no gods in buddhism.
    - mbrock 11y ago
      That's kind of... factually incorrect. As far as I know, all Buddhist traditions recognize gods and demons. They also recognize the Buddha as a "teacher of gods and men." It is absolutely a religion -- or possibly a few different religions. Since sometime in the late 1800s there have been pretty strong movements of what's often called "Buddhist modernism." A scholar of Buddhism named David McMahan wrote a good overview called "The Making of Buddhist Modernism" explaining the historical forces that shaped this development. It's also related to movements sometimes called "Protestant Buddhism." The Buddhist movements in the West have mostly been strongly influenced by such modernization. And there is a kind of spectrum of religiosity in the way Buddhism is practiced in these contexts. The secular mindfulness movement is an offshoot of a highly secularized form of Buddhism mostly transmitted from Burma via a group of American meditators. And so on! I mean, it's a complex topic, and the contemporary notion that you propose is definitely an oversimplification.
andreasfmwolf 11y ago
When the Hoffice concept started many of the groups enjoyed to use silence and mindfulness (a purely secular form of meditation) as a way to centre themselves, take a powerful break before continuing/starting the work. There is btw also some research backing that meditation is a very effective way of taking a break. But out of the same reasons, which you discuss below, our Hoffice group in Copenhagen dropped to use meditation, as some new attendees didn't appreciate it. As you say: Hoffice as a concept doesn't need any spiritual exercise. We might remove the reference from the homepage in a next iteration of improving the text. Thanks for the differentiated feedback!
- mbrock 11y ago
  I'm basically just expressing my subjective opinion. That I call it "bordering on religious proselytizing" is a little strong... It's probably not the right forum but I happen to have some perhaps idiosyncratic ideas about mindfulness, namely that it comes with a kind of "ideological" background... Not exactly religious, but something one might have legitimately different opinions about, kind of like politics. It's also something that can be emotional and in some cases distressing. Sorry, that's a little abstract, I'm just trying to indicate some kind of reasoning for why I would complain about something which is really a nice thought and that I can really imagine working well, if the attendees happen to be interested in mindfulness meditation. Actually I was thinking about becoming a host myself. I happen to have a little "meditation room" in my apartment, where I sit and meditate during my break. It's certainly nice to offer such a place for anyone to use. Like in some airports they have a room for sitting quietly. But yeah, I'm totally on board with how it's just an example of something people can do if they want to, as hosts. I think it'd be better if it was displayed more as an example, you know?
  - andreasfmwolf 11y ago
    Thanks, mbrock for the great input! I'll make sure that we rephrase it as an example... I can totally see that this nuance is missing!

by mbrock 11y ago

rodgerd 11y ago

Makes me wonder if they're tied up with one of the permutations of Landmark or The Forum or suchlike.

hoodoof 11y ago
Scientology maybe? Or the Knights Templar?

lectrick 11y ago

Meditation is as secular as informally promoting Apple Macbooks. There's plenty of science to back up the advantages of meditation, which you are free to Google. It is no longer religious hokum.

tikhonj 11y ago
And starting a professional gathering with a structured discussion of the benefits of Apple Macbooks also "borders on religious proselytizing". "Have you let Steve Jobs into your life?" The point is that the suggestion comes on too strong, with an analogy to religion, not that meditation and religion are inextricably connected.
mbrock 11y ago
Well, I'm confident you could find science that demonstrates positive physiological effects of prayer, too. Sitting quietly and relaxing or focusing the mind is nice, which is why I do sitting meditation frequently. I just don't want to do it in an unrelated group setting, along with a dharma talk that I can almost guarantee ventures into some kind of metaphysical or spiritual territory. Probably the "Hoffice" thing just isn't my cup of tea. The suggested break activities also include giving each other massages, doing "goofy" workouts, and some eye contact exercise that seems kind of creepy.
- lectrick 11y ago
  > Well, I'm confident you could find science that demonstrates positive physiological effects of prayer, too. No. No, you cannot. At least, I've never heard of any. Stop begging the question. > The suggested break activities also include giving each other massages, doing "goofy" workouts, and some eye contact exercise that seems kind of creepy. I would agree that those are a little weird.
DanBC 11y ago
Meditation isn't religious hokum. The way meditation is delivered means it's frequently accompanied with religious hokum. That's a shame. Many people would benefit from meditation but are put off by the considerable amounts of woo that go with it.

mbrock 11y ago

By the way, I say this as someone who is delighted to attend retreats that start every morning with a chanted invocation to the goddess of compassion along with the ritualized beating of a large fish-shaped drum, and two hours of sitting meditation before breakfast. Religious gatherings are cool. Working in a "spiritual" environment is nice. On such retreats I especially like the part where you work quietly, together, without talking... and I like how there are formal breaks for tea. I definitely think workplaces can take inspiration from monastic communities. But this just seems awkward. I realize I'm just talking about a little tip from whoever put up the website. I'd rather watch a video of a kitten in a box or something. Kittens are infinite too!

dubcanada 11y ago
You're not really talking about "Religious gatherings" you are talking about a specific "Religions, gathering". There are some very nice religious fuelled gatherings that lead to nice things like taking breaks, working quietly and all that other stuff. There are also some that don't.
fit2rule 11y ago
It seems like you'd be awkward because, well .. don't take this the wrong way .. you're making it more awkward than it is. A moment of mindfulness isn't just some human activity relegated to religious association; we all do it, even the most atheistic and scientific-minded people will pause at the beginning of a group activity to have a moment before proceeding. All this copy for Hoffice is doing, is expressing it in their own language. Is this something you'd really discriminate against the Hoffice participants for doing? Then for sure, its a good thing you've raised the issue. My advice: Inform the hosts in advance if you have zero tolerance for cultural interaction.
- mbrock 11y ago
  Sure. Although I'm specifically talking about sitting together listening to meditation talks, for example one about "being infinity." That sounds kind of trippy, and not like something I'd normally tune into right before going to work, but that's just my preference. Maybe it's just that I'm an awkward guy? A bunch of people upvoted my comment, seemingly in agreement, so presumably at least some subset of the Hacker News community is awkward in this way. I did sort of get the feeling that the Hoffice "spirit" catered to a type of extraversion that I don't have, for example I stay away from anything that involves "fun group activities" and massages from strangers. I still like to hang around people, drink coffee, talk about stuff, work. So it's not that I have "zero tolerance for cultural interaction."

hoodoof 11y ago

Agreed. The Hoffice idea is solid. It doesn't need airy fairy advice on how to work or relax.

rwinn 11y ago

It's not imposed. "But even though there is a structure, you are very welcome to ignore it, keep working while the others take breaks, come and go whenever you want. The structure is there to help us, not to limit us."

DanBC 11y ago
(I'm not sure why you got downvoted.) The hoffice model means you can look for hoffices that provide a guided meditation or, equally, actively avoid those hoffices. Or you could host your own hoffice that doesn't provide that stuff.

imaginenore 11y ago

Meditation is not religion-only. If anything, religions hijacked it and branded it as "spiritual", " connecting with God" or some other nonsense. Sam Harris is big in meditation, and he is as secular as it gets. http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/how-to-meditate http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/how-to-meditate

mbrock 11y ago
I'm not sure what you mean by "secular as it gets." Sure, he writes books denouncing organized religion... at least the ones he dislikes... so did U.G. Krishnamurti. He makes the claim that the meditation techniques of Theravada Buddhism can be taught in a secular way, and he probably has a point. He recommends books by Buddhist teachers, since he believes that Buddhism is a kind of scientific spirituality... and Buddhist retreat centers, since those places are the only "serious" places where meditation is taught. He attributes his capacity as a spiritual teacher to the long Buddhist retreats he did in India and Nepal. Some of his insight also came through psychedelic drugs. He also recommends books by Terence McKenna and Rick Strassman. He's an interesting and well-spoken guy, but I wouldn't exactly call him an icon of secular reason. If Noam Chomsky ever records a guided meditation, though... that would be interesting.
- imaginenore 11y ago
  Buddhism is not even a religion under most dictionary definitions. There are no gods in buddhism.
  - mbrock 11y ago
    That's kind of... factually incorrect. As far as I know, all Buddhist traditions recognize gods and demons. They also recognize the Buddha as a "teacher of gods and men." It is absolutely a religion -- or possibly a few different religions. Since sometime in the late 1800s there have been pretty strong movements of what's often called "Buddhist modernism." A scholar of Buddhism named David McMahan wrote a good overview called "The Making of Buddhist Modernism" explaining the historical forces that shaped this development. It's also related to movements sometimes called "Protestant Buddhism." The Buddhist movements in the West have mostly been strongly influenced by such modernization. And there is a kind of spectrum of religiosity in the way Buddhism is practiced in these contexts. The secular mindfulness movement is an offshoot of a highly secularized form of Buddhism mostly transmitted from Burma via a group of American meditators. And so on! I mean, it's a complex topic, and the contemporary notion that you propose is definitely an oversimplification.

andreasfmwolf 11y ago

When the Hoffice concept started many of the groups enjoyed to use silence and mindfulness (a purely secular form of meditation) as a way to centre themselves, take a powerful break before continuing/starting the work. There is btw also some research backing that meditation is a very effective way of taking a break. But out of the same reasons, which you discuss below, our Hoffice group in Copenhagen dropped to use meditation, as some new attendees didn't appreciate it. As you say: Hoffice as a concept doesn't need any spiritual exercise. We might remove the reference from the homepage in a next iteration of improving the text. Thanks for the differentiated feedback!

mbrock 11y ago
I'm basically just expressing my subjective opinion. That I call it "bordering on religious proselytizing" is a little strong... It's probably not the right forum but I happen to have some perhaps idiosyncratic ideas about mindfulness, namely that it comes with a kind of "ideological" background... Not exactly religious, but something one might have legitimately different opinions about, kind of like politics. It's also something that can be emotional and in some cases distressing. Sorry, that's a little abstract, I'm just trying to indicate some kind of reasoning for why I would complain about something which is really a nice thought and that I can really imagine working well, if the attendees happen to be interested in mindfulness meditation. Actually I was thinking about becoming a host myself. I happen to have a little "meditation room" in my apartment, where I sit and meditate during my break. It's certainly nice to offer such a place for anyone to use. Like in some airports they have a room for sitting quietly. But yeah, I'm totally on board with how it's just an example of something people can do if they want to, as hosts. I think it'd be better if it was displayed more as an example, you know?
- andreasfmwolf 11y ago
  Thanks, mbrock for the great input! I'll make sure that we rephrase it as an example... I can totally see that this nuance is missing!