4 ms·

A 'replacement' for systemd should be designed to be drop-in: /sbin/init should read unit files (which in general are much nicer than init scripts), should prov

by nteon 11y ago

A 'replacement' for systemd should be designed to be drop-in: /sbin/init should read unit files (which in general are much nicer than init scripts), should provide systemctl with the same options, and if dbus is also undesirable (which most people who burn with fire-y rage for systemd do), should replace the communication between processes like systemctl and /sbin/init with something else, like a Fuse or 9p filesystem. That would be pretty neat. But until then, the world will continue to run on systemd, because it _works_.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
/sbin/init shouldn't read files. A dedicated configuration parser should, and so it is done here. SystemXVI will have systemd unit file compatibility. SystemXVI natively uses an INI-like file format itself. SystemXVI uses SunRPC for communication. Writing a systemctl wrapper could be as trivial as a shell script. But until then, the world will continue to run on systemd, because it _works_ The world doesn't run on systemd, and it isn't a "just works" thing in the slightest.
- keithpeter 11y ago
  "The world doesn't run on systemd, and it isn't a "just works" thing in the slightest." Redhat are betting their particular farm on systemd in RHEL7, and Debian (hence recent Ubuntu releases building to the 16.04 LTS) has adopted the suite. Is the point you are making above based on the percentage of servers running earlier supported Linux implementations or on the existence of alternatives such as the BSDs?
  - weland 11y ago
    > Redhat are betting their particular farm on systemd in RHEL7 It's basically their product, so... > and Debian (hence recent Ubuntu releases building to the 16.04 LTS) has adopted the suite. I think Ubuntu adopting systemd has less to do with Debian doing so and more to do with Gnome becoming increasingly difficult to package without systemd.
  - tw04 11y ago
    Betting the farm? That seems a bit dramatic. I'm quite confident that Redhat could remove systemd just as easily as they added it if they had reason to.
    - jononor 11y ago
      Not in RHEL7, which they will support at least until June 30, 2024. Next RHEL version they could of course switch it out. They are also supporting Upstart in RHEL6 for a long time still, though its mostly a glorified sysvinit wrapper there.
X-Istence 11y ago
The world doesn't run on systemd on FreeBSD...
asveikau 11y ago
> the world will continue to run on systemd, because it _works_. Does it? When Debian switched to systemd my system stopped booting. When I managed to "fix" it, it worked superficially but displayed "Segmentation fault" at every boot [it still does that on another one of my machines, which in fairness never "broke".]. This in addition to boot-time fsck breaking and my bluetooth audio and keyboard setup no longer working. Based on this I am not inclined to think of Mr. Poettering as an "it just works" kinda guy. On a related note I have never successfully gotten pulse audio to perform its intended function of playing audio samples. After ~15 years of mostly tracking Debian sid on my personal machine, I switched to FreeBSD on my laptop when seeing these issues. No major issues since.
- mikekchar 11y ago
  Are you sure these are systemd problems? I'm not a huge fan of systemd, but I haven't actually had any problems with it (apart from not liking how it works ;-) ). For example, bluez breaks in every update in my experience. I've found a dance containing magical incantations that will usually keep it up for a few hours, but I still hold on to 2 or 3 old versions of the software just in case the new version is completely broken (which has happened to me on more than one occasion). I moved from Debian based distros to Arch a few years ago and found that my machines are a lot more stable. Because it you do the configuration yourself (rather than the configuration being in the package a la Debian), you are a lot more free to jettison dependencies of questionable quality. Though, I had a lot of trepidation when Arch switched to systemd, it has not yet broken my system in any way. Still, there's nothing wrong with FreeBSD, so if it's working for you, might as will stay with it.
  - simoncion 11y ago
    I'm running Gentoo Linux and haven't had issues with bluez. shrug
    - mikekchar 11y ago
      My bluez problem may be related to using a Microsoft Sculpt keyboard. Was running Gentoo for many years on one of my boxes with the same bluetooth issues. Mainly bluez works fine if the device doesn't shut down for power saving. If it does, then bluez will often refuse to reconnect to it. I've tried to debug it but the code is not the most friendly ;-) It seems that the agent gets in a bad state where it thinks the device is both simultaneously connected and not connected. The easiest way to solve the problem is to restart the bluetooth service, reinitialize the agent and then hit a key on the keyboard. Doing anything else will cause it to get in the same bad state again. Occasionally you have to remove the device and re-pair. Every third update it will just start working and I'll think "Oh they fixed the bug". Then the next update breaks it again. I don't doubt that bluez must work well for some hardware, but for mine it is practically black magic to get it working. My only point in fingering bluez is to say that bluetooth going down is not a surprising event on my machine and isn't related to systemd at all. I suspect the same is true of the OP's box. It was probably just a coincidence that bluetooth died at the same time that systemd was installed.

by nteon 11y ago

vezzy-fnord 11y ago

/sbin/init shouldn't read files. A dedicated configuration parser should, and so it is done here. SystemXVI will have systemd unit file compatibility. SystemXVI natively uses an INI-like file format itself. SystemXVI uses SunRPC for communication. Writing a systemctl wrapper could be as trivial as a shell script. But until then, the world will continue to run on systemd, because it _works_ The world doesn't run on systemd, and it isn't a "just works" thing in the slightest.

keithpeter 11y ago
"The world doesn't run on systemd, and it isn't a "just works" thing in the slightest." Redhat are betting their particular farm on systemd in RHEL7, and Debian (hence recent Ubuntu releases building to the 16.04 LTS) has adopted the suite. Is the point you are making above based on the percentage of servers running earlier supported Linux implementations or on the existence of alternatives such as the BSDs?
- weland 11y ago
  > Redhat are betting their particular farm on systemd in RHEL7 It's basically their product, so... > and Debian (hence recent Ubuntu releases building to the 16.04 LTS) has adopted the suite. I think Ubuntu adopting systemd has less to do with Debian doing so and more to do with Gnome becoming increasingly difficult to package without systemd.
- tw04 11y ago
  Betting the farm? That seems a bit dramatic. I'm quite confident that Redhat could remove systemd just as easily as they added it if they had reason to.
  - jononor 11y ago
    Not in RHEL7, which they will support at least until June 30, 2024. Next RHEL version they could of course switch it out. They are also supporting Upstart in RHEL6 for a long time still, though its mostly a glorified sysvinit wrapper there.

X-Istence 11y ago

The world doesn't run on systemd on FreeBSD...

asveikau 11y ago

> the world will continue to run on systemd, because it _works_. Does it? When Debian switched to systemd my system stopped booting. When I managed to "fix" it, it worked superficially but displayed "Segmentation fault" at every boot [it still does that on another one of my machines, which in fairness never "broke".]. This in addition to boot-time fsck breaking and my bluetooth audio and keyboard setup no longer working. Based on this I am not inclined to think of Mr. Poettering as an "it just works" kinda guy. On a related note I have never successfully gotten pulse audio to perform its intended function of playing audio samples. After ~15 years of mostly tracking Debian sid on my personal machine, I switched to FreeBSD on my laptop when seeing these issues. No major issues since.

mikekchar 11y ago
Are you sure these are systemd problems? I'm not a huge fan of systemd, but I haven't actually had any problems with it (apart from not liking how it works ;-) ). For example, bluez breaks in every update in my experience. I've found a dance containing magical incantations that will usually keep it up for a few hours, but I still hold on to 2 or 3 old versions of the software just in case the new version is completely broken (which has happened to me on more than one occasion). I moved from Debian based distros to Arch a few years ago and found that my machines are a lot more stable. Because it you do the configuration yourself (rather than the configuration being in the package a la Debian), you are a lot more free to jettison dependencies of questionable quality. Though, I had a lot of trepidation when Arch switched to systemd, it has not yet broken my system in any way. Still, there's nothing wrong with FreeBSD, so if it's working for you, might as will stay with it.
- simoncion 11y ago
  I'm running Gentoo Linux and haven't had issues with bluez. shrug
  - mikekchar 11y ago
    My bluez problem may be related to using a Microsoft Sculpt keyboard. Was running Gentoo for many years on one of my boxes with the same bluetooth issues. Mainly bluez works fine if the device doesn't shut down for power saving. If it does, then bluez will often refuse to reconnect to it. I've tried to debug it but the code is not the most friendly ;-) It seems that the agent gets in a bad state where it thinks the device is both simultaneously connected and not connected. The easiest way to solve the problem is to restart the bluetooth service, reinitialize the agent and then hit a key on the keyboard. Doing anything else will cause it to get in the same bad state again. Occasionally you have to remove the device and re-pair. Every third update it will just start working and I'll think "Oh they fixed the bug". Then the next update breaks it again. I don't doubt that bluez must work well for some hardware, but for mine it is practically black magic to get it working. My only point in fingering bluez is to say that bluetooth going down is not a surprising event on my machine and isn't related to systemd at all. I suspect the same is true of the OP's box. It was probably just a coincidence that bluetooth died at the same time that systemd was installed.