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Is it futile to un-Google?
- gnuarch 11y agoIt's not futile to un-Google. Every little bit helps. It's not too difficult to use another search engine, to choose a smaller email provider, to set-up Thunderbird with Enigmail, to set-up Owncloud on a server and/or your own NAS.
- walkingolof 11y agoI switched from gmail to Fastmail (http://www.fastmail.com http://www.fastmail.com) two years ago mostly because I don't want to feed the monster. Surprisingly, in many ways, the move was a step up in usability, I was prepared to scarify some comfort, but it turned out that I didn't had to. Fastmail offers everything I need, great mail client, calander, contacts, notes, great app for both Android and iOS I also got my family accounts on Fastmail, we ended up creating a family account so we can share folders, calenders, contacts etc. yes, it costs money, but I think its worth it. *) I'm not affiliated with Fastmail in anyway, just think the service provided is great.
- Sir_Cmpwn 11y agoI eventually just set up my own mail server. It was difficult and unpleasant, but when I was done I felt a lot better about my mail.
- joosters 11y agoI switched twice, from my own mail server -> gmail -> back to my own server. Setting up the mail server the second time around was much more difficult for me. There seemed to be a lot more to get right this time around. (anti-spam, in particular. Ensuring that your mails aren't dropped by other servers can be a pain to get right).
- tsagi 11y agoTried it but the mobile app could be much better.
- walkingolof 11y agoIf you have iOS everything integrates so no need for the app if you do not like it. Android is a bit harder to setup, but you can get mail, calendar and contacts working there too
- andrepd 11y agoIt costs money. Even if it cost 5$/year it would be a major hurdle. But it costs 40$/year for the same level of functionality as gmail. Sadly, most people will consider this a no-brainer in gmail's favour.
- walkingolof 11y agoI think its cheap, for example Netflix would cost me 120 bucks a year and I just occasionally use that service, email I use all the time.
- venomsnake 11y agoSo instead of Google, fastmail have all of your email. Big improvement ... I guess.
- walkingolof 11y agoWell, one is a small Australian company that make money from providing e-mail as a service, the other being a global company that use behavioral profiling to skew your view of the world.
- sigzero 11y agoFastmail doesn't peak into your emails like Google does with gmail. That is a big improvement.
- krapp 11y agoHow do you know?
- lern_too_spel 11y agoHe obviously doesn't know because he's wrong. Fastmail still analyzes mail for spam and indexes them for search, among other text processing.
- chmars 11y agoAre you happy with deliverability? I have had some Fastmail issues where mails did not get delivered as reliable as with Gmail … filters are also much less convenient to set up. On the other hand, Fastmail is great as an IMAP provider. The web GUI etc. are OK but there are still issues, for example with non-English characters in the search. 2FA is kind of strange too with its mix between your password and the 2FA token. And spam filtering is of course not comparable with Gmail in my experience (with Fastmail erring on the spam side and Gmail erring on the false positive side, I don't know which one is 'preferable'!).
- walkingolof 11y agoWorked well for me so far, agree on the 2FA, but apparently thats going to be fixed in a not to far away future
- x0x0 11y agoI've grumped about this before, but fastmail is not great email or calendar; I have a long list of bugs. For example: just last month I discovered they can't reliably handle calendar events sent from outlook (you know, that tiny calendar server that no business uses). This made a phone screen a huge hassle to schedule. Somehow a meeting request sent as 3pm PDT / 2200 greenwich got loaded into my fastmail calendar as 2pm pdt/10pm bst. It's just flaky.
- johnchristopher 11y agoWould a well designed campaign about GPG and how to use it help ? Has anyone ever tried that ? The more the likes of lavaboom, whiteout or proton mail sprout up from the ground, the more I feel it'd be simpler to teach K9 and GPG to `people' than having them switch over a new service that might or might not survive the next 6 months. At least for E-mail.
- psynapse 11y agoI run my own mail server, use GPG with Enigmail and I'm logged in to Wickr all day. I also use Orbot, Text Secure and Red Phone on my Mobile. The problem that I have is that despite talking up these to my peers, no one uses the secure channels. Even friends that created Wickr accounts message me on Facebook.
- eps 11y ago> 51% of his emails passed through Google servers I was playing with an idea of an "off-Google email delivery" for Gmail recipients. Basically they would get a short note saying that a reply to your email is available, please pick it up [here], with a link leading to a TLS'd page on a non-Google server. The same page would offer them an option of replying to the conversation right there if there's a need to do that. I'm pretty sure this would piss the hell off some Gmail users, but that'd be exactly the point - to make them at least stop and consider that not everyone's a fan of passing all their communications through Google. Is there anything like this out there?
- aviraldg 11y agoTwo can play that game. I would not reply to such an email unless the sender specified some very good reasons for doing so.
- eps 11y agoThis is primary meant for replying to gmail-originated emails.
- tsagi 11y agoIf you send an encrypted email from protonmail.ch to someone who uses another email provider, he get's a notification email with a link that does just that. However the recipient should know the password to see and reply to the email.
- nly 11y agoNothing really stops Google from following the link to get adwords out of you.
- eps 11y agoThat can be blocked easily enough. It can also be used to explicitly tell recepients that someone/something else read their emails on this date from this address.
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- thinkingoutloud 11y agoHere is a thought... Email is supposedly a digital metaphor for snail mail. With snail mail, you receive a letter in your mailbox (which you check every other day), and you take the letter out, process it, and either store it somewhere safe or discard it (POP). That is how email used to work. At some point things changed so you no longer regularly clear your mailbox, but you just open the letter, read it, and put it back in (IMAP). Actually, you no longer get the mail in the mailbox. You call the post office and ask them to read the letter to you (webmail).
- privong 11y agoInteresting way to think about it, but before POP, I think the snail mail analogy would be something like: you'd drive to the post office (telnet/log in to the compute terminal), open your letter and read it. Then possibly put it back in your P.O. Box, or put it into a folder that's kept at the post office.
- hippich 11y agoi am probably repeating myself (but these topics repeat themselves too :)) If you are interested in switching away from Google, take a look at https://github.com/sovereign/sovereign https://github.com/sovereign/sovereign It is ansible playbook to setup most of the stuff you need daily (and extras on top) on own barebone dedicated/vp server. Super easy to get going. (not "Install" button like easy, but nowhere close to pains of setting up mail server, making sure antispam and dkim signing work, etc,etc,etc)
- brudgers 11y agoSerious pursuit for a technical person probably winds up looking a lit like Stallman's lifestyle...though perhaps with less fame and public purpose.
- out_of_protocol 11y agoQuestion to anyone: how hard it would be to integrate pgp (or pgp-like) thing on browser level? would immediately solve all the headache. let's say: Special UI for storing private/public pairs in a browser (private key never leaves the PC) special javascript commands (assume some standard here) to invoke native windows which can not be controlled via js. sign, type message, encrypt. confirm this specific message is actually signed by specific person (pretty trivial in terms of coding and bulletproof UI, except for "public identity storage" part which exceptionally hard). Looks like very simple htmlsomething standard could overturn all the state of modern web privacy.
- out_of_protocol 11y agoSomeone (like gmail) can even do rich text editor for emails and stuff - without compromising security. let's say separate sandbox w/o internet and write access to cookies etc. load scripts, css, images. show native window (clearly different than anything js can do) with that rich text editor inside. user types message in, system encrypts (and/or signs) the message. regular html page sees the result.
- robryk 11y agoThere is a Chrome extension that does something like that: https://github.com/google/end-to-end https://github.com/google/end-to-end Obligatory warning: it's in an alpha state according to the readme, so you shouldn't use it yet for real.
- legulere 11y agoOr you know, just use a email client and use S/MIME which most email clients support.
- jMyles 11y agoYeah, but then it's a pain when you want to check your email from a friend's computer or something.
- r3bl 11y agoI kind of found a sweet spot where I'm using a European-based email service. I created my Google account with it, but I'm not really using it constantly (just to comment on YouTube videos now and then and use Google+ like once a week). I'm also using Google's Docs occasionally, but just to share the .pdf docs with people I interviewed to show them a preview of the article that is going to be public in a couple of days anyway. I'm using Facebook like once per week (I don't have it installed on my phone), I don't own any Apple products, I'm using OpenStreetMap instead of Google's Maps, I'm using DuckDuckGo instead of Google's search (and I love it). On my laptop, I'm using a Linux-based operating system. I'm perfectly happy. It's a perfect privacy/usability combination for me. I changed a lot of my habits since Snowden came out and I am perfectly happy with it.
- lucaspiller 11y ago> I'm using OpenStreetMap instead of Google's Maps Do you have anything that provides turn-by-turn navigation and live traffic?
- tdkl 11y agoYou could try Here Maps, they've been bought by german car makers and doubt they need to mine data.
- ck2 11y agoIf you are in the USA, everything you emailed six months ago is open for reading by any government agency without a warrant, without letting you know in any way. (and if you are not in the usa, just assume it is realtime) This is why everyone should probably have their own private email server locked down in their home. Postfix can be made pretty secure.
- rsync 11y agoOne of the nice things about running your own mail server is that mail you send to other local users does not traverse the Internet. It's just a local copy operation. This, of course, requires that everyone use the hosted email client on that server, but it's worth remembering. Personally, I (and everyone at rsync.net) just use (al)pine, so the hosted email client is very simple (and fast and efficient).
- ck2 11y agoWhat's interesting is if you look at gmail headers, they do indeed route via public IPv6 back to themselves for gmail-to-gmail transactions. Or at least they log the ipv6 route within their own datacenter, or between datacenters. So that is up for argument if it is traveling via their own intranet or "the internet". (at least google uses AES TLS, yahoo still uses RC4)
- drdaeman 11y ago<rant sorry="yes"> The problem is... it sucks. I'm doing this and - honestly - it's not very pleasant experience. The dilemma is - either sell your soul to Google (Apple, Microsoft, whoever else) and surrender to their will for a glimpse of their proprietary innovations, or have to deal with basic (and somewhat ancient) technologies without much of support. Unless you hire a sysadmin to maintain that for you. The thing is, popular services add some value, like smart email processing, reasonably-well maintained spam filtering, tagging emails (IMAP doesn't have this!) etc etc. It's all theoretically doable in DIY setups, of course, but entry barriers (time, knowledge) are huge, and in practice one'll likely to end up with only basic functionality that'd they'll end up eventually abandoning due to maintenance being a PITA. </rant>
- coldtea 11y ago>On the bright side, Snowden notes that the big software companies are doing steps in the right direction. I call BS on that. What are the steps FB, Google, Apple etc have taken "in the right direction". If anything it's only gonna get worse, what with expanding to the "Internet of Things" and such (not to mention future possible Google and Apple self-driving cars).
- reviseddamage 11y agoSo, you would believe Snowden's statements on the bad, but not on the optimistic?
- coldtea 11y agoYeah, I can be critical on what I believe and don't have to take anybody's word wholesale. That sais, what I believe are the leaked documents, that haven't really been disputed and if anything were corroborated by tons of subsequent stories. For the 'optimistic' stuff: Snowden doesn't have access to Google/Apple/FB etc, so what steps he says that they've taken since are the same stuff reported in the media that we too know. And those steps are nothing to write home about. I see the same shit going on as usual -- only even more so.
- reviseddamage 11y agoGood points man. Sorry you feel that way. I'm an ever optimist.
- coldtea 11y agoA couple disagreement downvotes. Anybody who also has some counter-arguments of his own to make?
- mamon 11y agoI have a dream: I would like to have all the "cloud" services: Gmail, Dropbox, Google Docs, online photo gallery, video streaming, etc. And I would like to have them as downloadable software packages, so that I could buy my own domain, set up my MacMini as a server and have all of the above services hosted on the server I own and have full controll of. Do you think that's possible to do ?
- zanny 11y agoOwnCloud covers most of that. What it doesn't, someone is working on.
- amelius 11y ago> [...] set up my MacMini as a server and have all of the above services hosted on the server I own and have full controll of. Do you think that's possible to do? Unfortunately, that is not (fully) possible. Consumer internet landlines traditionally have an upload speed that is 10x slower than the download speed. Hence you will never get the same performance as a data-center hosted solution.
- toufka 11y agoBut you don't really need that much bandwidth for all of these services. Dropbox's bandwidth would be the hardest to replicate - but even then, in general, once you get your first backup done, updates shouldn't require that much bandwidth. Music streaming works fine. Photos bottleneck is almost more processing power than bandwidth. Streaming video might be slow, but downloading, then watching usually is good enough for one's own videos shared with friends. And bandwidth, like HD space, is always increasing.
- mamon 11y agoThere are also some "commercial" symetrical links, meant mainly for small companies. They cost 2-5 times more than a normal, consumer-grade link, but I wouldn't mind paying that extra for the possibility of keeping my data safe.
- saalweachter 11y ago
- reeta 11y agogood
- gtirloni 11y agoWhen the wiretapping scandals started to get more attention, I got really paranoid. I decided to go full gear into privacy mode and the end result was total frustration with poor tools and way more friction than necessary. Then I realized I'd like just _some_ of my stuff to be positively private and I didn't care much about the other 95%. So that's where I focus my attention, much like the author. If I had endless time and money, sure, I would love to have everything super private and secure, but I don't so.. a more pragmatic approach is needed.
- yuvadam 11y agoApproaching the "to google or not to google" question is impossible without stating your casus belli. If you care about opsec, there are many reasons why you would want to use google services: e.g. a hostile actor will have an extremely hard time stealing your emails from Gmail while there's a might higher chance you fucked up a config on your self-hosted setup. Usually, as always, it comes down to smart compartmentalization and using the right tool for the job. Personally, the ethical perspective is a much stronger reason why to stray away from data behemoths like Google and Facebook. First of all I believe the "usefullness" of many of these services is over-exaggerated: Facebook noawadays is more of a brainwashing service to expose you to "content" that does nothing more than dull your mind and keep you mindlessly scrolling and endless stream of irrelevant advertisements. But even if this isn't the case for all online services, some come at a price I am personally not willing to pay. We are entering an era of digital slavery where our entire lives are managed by data monopolies that are bound by no rules other than those they create for themselves. I don't care how convenient these commercial services are, if the price is giving up the sovereignty of my data, and the core liberties of my human existence. I make a conscious choice to not be part of this system, and we will all have to face this choice sooner or later. For more on this topic, I highly suggest Aral Balkan's talk from re:publica this year [1]. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8supIUj6c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8supIUj6c
- zajd 11y agoYes, Facebook isn't very "useful", but I think you'd have a hard time making the same case about Google's services. Maps, Gmail and Android(assuming iOS/Windows Phone isn't an option) are all hard to beat.
- yuvadam 11y agoThey all have viable alternatives. I don't miss any of Google's services.
- thrownaway2424 11y ago"It is not the only useful thing" is a different statement from "It is not useful."
- mulander 11y agoNo it's not futile. Every little bit helps. I switched from google search to duckduckgo. I still hit an occasional search on google but that's a percentile of the searches they got from me before that decision. I host my own mail server. Yes I still have that gmail account for stuff that are not important enough to migrate and look it up from time to time but the majority of my personal email traffic now goes through my own server. They still get some of my mail if the recipient is a gmail account but guess what? It's not all of my mail. I don't host files on Dropbox or the Google drive. I have my own owncloud server on the same box as the mail server. I host my own jabber server for real time chat - mostly with my wife as a lot of people no longer use anything except google/facebook chats. I talk on IRC with tech friends/work, jabber for personal stuff and once in a blue moon I open up that g+ chat to check if someone wanted something from me. I do my backups on tarsnap, feels great. I run Linux for my work machine and OpenBSD for my private machine. I do have an Android phone but I essentially stopped carrying it with me everywhere. I hate being a slave of the phone, no longer have a mobile data plan and I take the phone with me only when I really need to be reached. Does Google know a lot about me? Yes. Are they still learning more from people I communicate with? Yes. The point is, they are getting less information. I already noticed a large quality drop in the accuracy of google searches/youtube recommendations for my account. Side effect from all of this is that people in my close circle of friends tend to pick up some of the habits (duckduckgo & other small bits). You don't take down a giant with one stroke, you cut it up piece by piece.
- hiq 11y ago> I switched from google search to duckduckgo. I still hit an occasional search on google but that's a percentile of the searches they got from me before that decision. You can use !s in duckduckgo to use startpage instead of duckduckgo, so you end up with google's results but avoid the privacy leak (so long as you trust ddg and sp). > I don't host files on Dropbox or the Google drive. I have my own owncloud server on the same box as the mail server. I prefer syncthing, and it's easier to stay on the local network. ownCloud has lots of features, but it's overkill if you only need a dropbox clone. > I do have an Android phone but I essentially stopped carrying it with me everywhere. I hate being a slave of the phone, no longer have a mobile data plan and I take the phone with me only when I really need to be reached. No longer have a mobile data plan either, that just means I read my emails and hn a bit less. Cyanogenmod seems to be a big improvement over plain Android privacy-wise. > I already noticed a large quality drop in the accuracy of google searches/youtube recommendations for my account. What do you need a google account for? Also I don't know if companies are legally entitled to gather personal information based on ip addresses, but I use Tor Browser as my default browser so I don't feel threatened by that. On the whole the situation could easily improve if gmail actually had a proper competitor.
- runjake 11y agoA lot of people are recommending ownCloud. After spending some time with ownCloud and pouring through it, I'll take the relatively superior safety, security, and privacy of Google. I encourage any doubters to examine the ownCloud source[1] and come to their own conclusions. Migrate away from Google where you can, but do it in small steps with rational, informed decisions. 1. To head off the obvious response of "Then submit patches, make it better!": That's akin to walking into a home fraught by fire and mentioning the pictures could use a little dusting.
- davexunit 11y agoI don't understand how you could possibly claim the Google Drive is in any way more secure than OwnCloud. Proprietary software hosted in the cloud is inherently unsafe, insecure, and not private. OwnCloud may not be the best piece of software, but it can be audited by anyone and hosted on computers that you trust. You have no idea if Google Drive is secure because it is impossible for you audit it.
- jqm 11y agoI use OwnCloud but I'm hopeful a better version in something like Python emerges soon. Have to agree with OP (who did audit the code as you suggest). PHP OwnCloud feels a bit like a janky duck taped mess. I'm always a bit surprised it works and it doesn't make me feel a whole lot more secure than using a provider like MS, Dropbox or Google. I just like running my own stuff which is why I use it.
- bildung 11y ago> I use OwnCloud but I'm hopeful a better version in something like Python emerges soon. The web interface of Seafile (https://github.com/haiwen/seafile https://github.com/haiwen/seafile) is written in Python/Django. The server is C, though.
- dredmorbius 11y agoImplication is that OP has audited source and found it wanting. Threat models and risks vary. SAAS offers aggregated data and appealing targets, though they may be well hardened. Much as I criticise Google, I find their claims of protecting data reasonably credible (not enough to be comfortable with it). A distributed system with many known and unknown vulnerabilities and a readily determined network signature (nmap or similar) remains a bulk source. A determined adversary could scan all possible network space quite quickly and access data. With known targets -- monitoring your network traffic, knowing URLs or MXs -- they could target you directly. NB: I haven't audited OwnClowd, nor am I particularly qualified to do so.
- cronjobber 11y agoDon't forget the supply side---consider blocking googlebot from crawling your non-commercial content. A critical mass of google bot boycotters could help tip google search into becoming so blatantly commercial that opinion leaders might finally consider alternatives.
- phantarch 11y agoFor those who don't google and use many of the 'big' services: Do you also not shop at large retail chains like Target or Walmart? Do you avoid Starbucks? They all collect the information you give them, sell it, analyze it, and figure out how to better get you to buy from them. I'm honestly curious if it's simply an issue about the collection of your data or if it's an issue of what data is collected.
- dingaling 11y agoThe difference is that Tesco only knows about one aspect of my life: grocery shopping. I can handle that and contain the risk. I don't use coffee shops but if I did they'd only know about my coffee preferences and work patterns. Google, however, with search, Gmail and Now alone knows everything about the lives of its users. And quite a lot about the lives of non-users with whom they communicate.
- rdsnsca 11y agoJust use that old fashioned thing called cash, funny enough all the stores you named take it. Of course you do not want to use any loyalty cards either.
- dennisgorelik 11y agoThis fight for privacy reminds me Don Quixote's attack on windmills.
- jakeogh 11y agoEventually one can: echo "address=/.google.com/127.0.0.1" >> /etc/dnsmasq.conf (along with google's other domains) Note this cant be done with standard /etc/hosts blocking since the hosts file does not support blocking subdomains unless they are explicit.
- cbpy 11y agoto fully un-Google is not easy, but sites like http://www.keyamp.com/ http://www.keyamp.com/ can help you watch Youtube videos... these iptables rules can help you block Google (there is probably more efficient ways to write those rules too)... #!/bin/sh # /etc/init.d/firewall IPT="/sbin/iptables" IPT6="/sbin/ip6tables" # Block Google $IPT -A INPUT -s 64.18.0.0/20 -j DROP $IPT -A INPUT -s 64.233.160.0/19 -j DROP $IPT -A INPUT -s 64.102.0.0/20 -j DROP $IPT -A INPUT -s 66.249.80.0/20 -j DROP $IPT -A INPUT -s 72.14.192.0/18 -j DROP $IPT -A INPUT -s 74.125.0.0/16 -j DROP $IPT -A INPUT -s 108.177.8.0/21 -j DROP $IPT -A INPUT -s 173.194.0.0/16 -j DROP $IPT -A INPUT -s 207.126.144.0/20 -j DROP $IPT -A INPUT -s 209.85.128.0/17 -j DROP $IPT -A INPUT -s 216.58.192.0/19 -j DROP $IPT -A INPUT -s 216.239.32.0/19 -j DROP $IPT -A OUTPUT -d 64.18.0.0/20 -j DROP $IPT -A OUTPUT -d 64.233.160.0/19 -j DROP $IPT -A OUTPUT -d 64.102.0.0/20 -j DROP $IPT -A OUTPUT -d 66.249.80.0/20 -j DROP $IPT -A OUTPUT -d 72.14.192.0/18 -j DROP $IPT -A OUTPUT -d 74.125.0.0/16 -j DROP $IPT -A OUTPUT -d 108.177.8.0/21 -j DROP $IPT -A OUTPUT -d 173.194.0.0/16 -j DROP $IPT -A OUTPUT -d 207.126.144.0/20 -j DROP $IPT -A OUTPUT -d 209.85.128.0/17 -j DROP $IPT -A OUTPUT -d 216.58.192.0/19 -j DROP $IPT -A OUTPUT -d 216.239.32.0/19 -j DROP $IPT6 -A INPUT -s 2001:4860:4000::/36 -j DROP $IPT6 -A INPUT -s 2404:6800:4000::/36 -j DROP $IPT6 -A INPUT -s 2607:f8b0:4000::/36 -j DROP $IPT6 -A INPUT -s 2800:3f0:4000::/36 -j DROP $IPT6 -A INPUT -s 2a00:1450:4000::/36 -j DROP $IPT6 -A INPUT -s 2c0f:fb50:4000::/36 -j DROP $IPT6 -A OUTPUT -s 2001:4860:4000::/36 -j DROP $IPT6 -A OUTPUT -s 2404:6800:4000::/36 -j DROP $IPT6 -A OUTPUT -s 2607:f8b0:4000::/36 -j DROP $IPT6 -A OUTPUT -s 2800:3f0:4000::/36 -j DROP $IPT6 -A OUTPUT -s 2a00:1450:4000::/36 -j DROP $IPT6 -A OUTPUT -s 2c0f:fb50:4000::/36 -j DROP
- cbpy 11y agosince I posted this, the proxy started to have issues with youtube... I really wish Google would get split up
- superuser2 11y agoOf course it's futile. The only thing that protects confidentiality is end-to-end zero-knowledge encryption performed in open source code audited by professional cryptographers, with a trusted system for distributing public keys. Using indie or European providers is just window dressing. Your emails will be in plaintext SMTP when they reach NSA fiber taps just like everyone else's. Running your own server just shifts your trust from Google to DigitalOcean/Linode/AWS or your residential ISP (even less deserving). I wish we would stop this navel-gazing about which providers to trust and FUCKING ADOPT GPG ALREADY. It's been, what, 15 years?
- dpc_pw 11y agoGPG sucks. I use it, I have a smartcard, I did subkeys, etc. I encrypt backups, I log with it to ssh. And it sucks. It sucks so bad, that I don't even know why I am doing it. There are just so many technical glitches, not to mention all the googling, FAQs, manuals that I had to bookmark and constantly refer to, to use it.
- ionised 11y agoNo it's not futile. I've done it (completely Google free). It's actually very easy to do and the comment about inferior UX is indicative of someone who hasn't seriously spent any time researching alternatives. This article is just the author attemtping to justify to himself his unwillingness to do without Google services. That's fine, if you want to use Google services you should be able to. Just don't pretend like everyone else is having the same difficulty moving away from them to make yourself feel better.