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Also to be fair, is it proven that Tor's most popular use-case is something other than criminal activity? I know there are legit uses for Tor certainly, but it

by utnick 11y ago

Also to be fair, is it proven that Tor's most popular use-case is something other than criminal activity? I know there are legit uses for Tor certainly, but it wouldn't really surprise me if criminals were the primary users

some-guy 11y ago
I don't know the answer to your question, but one thing to keep in mind is that "criminal activity" does not always imply "morally questionable activity". To use extreme examples, someone watching child pornography isn't the same as a journalist hiding from an oppressive regime.
api 11y ago
Criminals are numerically the most common Tor users. But the difference is that what's "criminal" depends on your place of residence. In America Tor is mostly used (other than as a curiosity) for drugs and child porn. The former I could care less about, while the latter is indeed creepy. It's also occasionally used for private communication with journalists, a numerically less common use but a politically critical one. While I strongly detest child porn, I equally detest drug prohibition and journalist and whistleblower harassment/censorship. In Iran? China? Saudi Arabia? Russia? In places like that Tor is used for dissident communication and private correspondence with people overseas. In those places public opposition to the ruling regime can itself be a crime. There are also authorities including police and intelligence personnel who use Tor -- very ironically to hide from criminals. For example, an undercover cop might use Tor to hide their correspondence with the police from digital snoops in the employ of a criminal organization they are infiltrating. Some organized crime outfits are very sophisticated, making undercover work actually require a degree of 'op-sec' on the part of the agent. Compromise can be fatal. Tor is a gun. Criminals use guns but so do police, hunters, and people legitimately defending themselves. In America you could probably defend Tor and other crypto tools on second amendment grounds.
- ironsides 11y ago
  Please provide sources to support your argument. Edit: Why would I be modded down for asking someone making claims (questionable ones at best) to provide sources?
  - api 11y ago
    Try this: http://geekslop.com/2015/catching-pedophiles-running-secret-dark-web-tor-honeypot http://geekslop.com/2015/catching-pedophiles-running-secret-... "... First, the pedo site saw magnitudes more traffic than the counterfeiting or drugs websites – in the order of 100 times more traffic than the other two combined. ..." BTW I wasn't arguing that Tor itself is bad, just refusing to engage in the common denialism one sees among crypto and Tor advocates in claiming it has no bad uses. The truth is that many things have negative uses: guns, knives, security systems, Bitcoin, crypto, fireworks, spray paint, alcohol or virtually any drug, explosives, drones, cameras, etc. All those things have positive uses as well, and it's ultimately the user who is responsible for how they are used. Pedophiles use SSL too, should we ban that? As far as police and intelligence agency use of Tor, look up some of the talks by the Tor founders in which they cite examples of these uses. In addition to undercover use, Tor is useful for law enforcement to hide their network location while investigating potential criminal sites online. Otherwise a site might easily see that the traffic is coming from a police or .gov site.
    - dublinben 11y ago
      Traffic to hidden services makes up a tiny fraction of the overall use of the Tor network.[0] Any conclusions drawn from that use is highly skewed, and cannot be used to draw conclusions about Tor itself. [0] https://blog.torproject.org/blog/some-statistics-about-onions https://blog.torproject.org/blog/some-statistics-about-onion...
chronial 11y ago
Here are the stats by country. I don't think there any more detailed stats available, as not tracking is the whole point of tor: https://metrics.torproject.org/userstats-relay-table.html https://metrics.torproject.org/userstats-relay-table.html Country Mean daily users United States 370492 (18.53 %) Germany 201280 (10.06 %) Russia 173453 (8.67 %) France 125916 (6.30 %) United Kingdom 87386 (4.37 %) Brazil 64918 (3.25 %) Spain 62547 (3.13 %) Italy 60229 (3.01 %) Japan 50234 (2.51 %) Poland 41437 (2.07 %) You can draw your own conclusions from that :)
mindslight 11y ago
> Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech What could possibly be done with a communications relay that would fall outside of this proscription? Unless you just mean "criminal" in the age old non-rule-of-law sense, people who are shunned by society.
AndyMcConachie 11y ago
Rarely is the law interested in something like "most popular use case", or a mere plurality. There are different standards for different circumstances, but usually it's something like substantial noninfringing uses, like in Sony's famous Betamax case. This example is from left field, but the reason I bring it up is that no court will want to know what a plurality of Tor users do with Tor. The standard is probably much lower than that. Given this, what is probably more interesting is to catalogue different legitimate use cases for Tor. Then cite actual examples of real people using Tor in these fashions, and how their freedoms would be infringed if they could not use Tor. For example, I use Tor regularly to see how web pages render for people other than myself. It allows me to check how personalized a website has been made for me. Especially with ads, if I want to guess at how targetted ads are to me, I can use Tor for comparison.

by utnick 11y ago

some-guy 11y ago

I don't know the answer to your question, but one thing to keep in mind is that "criminal activity" does not always imply "morally questionable activity". To use extreme examples, someone watching child pornography isn't the same as a journalist hiding from an oppressive regime.

api 11y ago

Criminals are numerically the most common Tor users. But the difference is that what's "criminal" depends on your place of residence. In America Tor is mostly used (other than as a curiosity) for drugs and child porn. The former I could care less about, while the latter is indeed creepy. It's also occasionally used for private communication with journalists, a numerically less common use but a politically critical one. While I strongly detest child porn, I equally detest drug prohibition and journalist and whistleblower harassment/censorship. In Iran? China? Saudi Arabia? Russia? In places like that Tor is used for dissident communication and private correspondence with people overseas. In those places public opposition to the ruling regime can itself be a crime. There are also authorities including police and intelligence personnel who use Tor -- very ironically to hide from criminals. For example, an undercover cop might use Tor to hide their correspondence with the police from digital snoops in the employ of a criminal organization they are infiltrating. Some organized crime outfits are very sophisticated, making undercover work actually require a degree of 'op-sec' on the part of the agent. Compromise can be fatal. Tor is a gun. Criminals use guns but so do police, hunters, and people legitimately defending themselves. In America you could probably defend Tor and other crypto tools on second amendment grounds.

ironsides 11y ago
Please provide sources to support your argument. Edit: Why would I be modded down for asking someone making claims (questionable ones at best) to provide sources?
- api 11y ago
  Try this: http://geekslop.com/2015/catching-pedophiles-running-secret-dark-web-tor-honeypot http://geekslop.com/2015/catching-pedophiles-running-secret-... "... First, the pedo site saw magnitudes more traffic than the counterfeiting or drugs websites – in the order of 100 times more traffic than the other two combined. ..." BTW I wasn't arguing that Tor itself is bad, just refusing to engage in the common denialism one sees among crypto and Tor advocates in claiming it has no bad uses. The truth is that many things have negative uses: guns, knives, security systems, Bitcoin, crypto, fireworks, spray paint, alcohol or virtually any drug, explosives, drones, cameras, etc. All those things have positive uses as well, and it's ultimately the user who is responsible for how they are used. Pedophiles use SSL too, should we ban that? As far as police and intelligence agency use of Tor, look up some of the talks by the Tor founders in which they cite examples of these uses. In addition to undercover use, Tor is useful for law enforcement to hide their network location while investigating potential criminal sites online. Otherwise a site might easily see that the traffic is coming from a police or .gov site.
  - dublinben 11y ago
    Traffic to hidden services makes up a tiny fraction of the overall use of the Tor network.[0] Any conclusions drawn from that use is highly skewed, and cannot be used to draw conclusions about Tor itself. [0] https://blog.torproject.org/blog/some-statistics-about-onions https://blog.torproject.org/blog/some-statistics-about-onion...

chronial 11y ago

Here are the stats by country. I don't think there any more detailed stats available, as not tracking is the whole point of tor: https://metrics.torproject.org/userstats-relay-table.html https://metrics.torproject.org/userstats-relay-table.html Country Mean daily users United States 370492 (18.53 %) Germany 201280 (10.06 %) Russia 173453 (8.67 %) France 125916 (6.30 %) United Kingdom 87386 (4.37 %) Brazil 64918 (3.25 %) Spain 62547 (3.13 %) Italy 60229 (3.01 %) Japan 50234 (2.51 %) Poland 41437 (2.07 %) You can draw your own conclusions from that :)

mindslight 11y ago

> Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech What could possibly be done with a communications relay that would fall outside of this proscription? Unless you just mean "criminal" in the age old non-rule-of-law sense, people who are shunned by society.

AndyMcConachie 11y ago

Rarely is the law interested in something like "most popular use case", or a mere plurality. There are different standards for different circumstances, but usually it's something like substantial noninfringing uses, like in Sony's famous Betamax case. This example is from left field, but the reason I bring it up is that no court will want to know what a plurality of Tor users do with Tor. The standard is probably much lower than that. Given this, what is probably more interesting is to catalogue different legitimate use cases for Tor. Then cite actual examples of real people using Tor in these fashions, and how their freedoms would be infringed if they could not use Tor. For example, I use Tor regularly to see how web pages render for people other than myself. It allows me to check how personalized a website has been made for me. Especially with ads, if I want to guess at how targetted ads are to me, I can use Tor for comparison.