4 ms·

> What's stopping a future anthropologist from declaring siberians and pygmies to be different species? The fact that they are capable of producing fertile off

> What's stopping a future anthropologist from declaring siberians and pygmies to be different species? The fact that they are capable of producing fertile offspring ?

kaffeemitsahne 11y ago
I think the point was: how can you know that when you only have a few kg of bone fragments?
- johnchristopher 11y ago
  I am more concerned with the scientific racism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism#United_State...) emanating from that post.
pbhjpbhj 11y ago
Taking that as the metric how have the writers of the paper in the OP proved that the species that produced these bone fragments was not able to produce [fertile] offspring with any other species (of which they have a few bone fragments), or even with modern humans. Even with a full genome, or a full skeleton is it even possible? Surely the only way we currently have to determine mating compatibility is to have live subjects to mate/extract gametes from and means to incubate the zygote [and care for it to adulthood].
kamilner 11y ago
Producing infertile offspring is not necessary for two things to be different species, though. Fertile offspring from two different species is not all that uncommon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_speciation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_speciation
simonh 11y ago
But then you have ring species such as some seaguls. The gulls in Northern Europe can interbreed with the ones in Canada, which can interbreed with the ones in Alaska, which can interbreed with the ones in Siberia, which cannot interbreed with the ones is northern Europe. So is there one species or two, and if two where do you draw the line?
- Dwolb 11y ago
  I would surmise the answer is N-1 where N is the number of separate gull groups. A species would then consist of two gull groups who can mate and this answer assumes there are no mini circles or triangles in the ring. No idea the academic answer though.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    By that definition a particular individual could simultaneously be a member of two species.
- johnchristopher 11y ago
  Fascinating ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species

> What's stopping a future anthropologist from declaring siberians and pygmies to be different species? The fact that they are capable of producing fertile offspring ?

kaffeemitsahne 11y ago

I think the point was: how can you know that when you only have a few kg of bone fragments?

johnchristopher 11y ago
I am more concerned with the scientific racism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism#United_State...) emanating from that post.

pbhjpbhj 11y ago

Taking that as the metric how have the writers of the paper in the OP proved that the species that produced these bone fragments was not able to produce [fertile] offspring with any other species (of which they have a few bone fragments), or even with modern humans. Even with a full genome, or a full skeleton is it even possible? Surely the only way we currently have to determine mating compatibility is to have live subjects to mate/extract gametes from and means to incubate the zygote [and care for it to adulthood].

kamilner 11y ago

Producing infertile offspring is not necessary for two things to be different species, though. Fertile offspring from two different species is not all that uncommon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_speciation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_speciation

simonh 11y ago

But then you have ring species such as some seaguls. The gulls in Northern Europe can interbreed with the ones in Canada, which can interbreed with the ones in Alaska, which can interbreed with the ones in Siberia, which cannot interbreed with the ones is northern Europe. So is there one species or two, and if two where do you draw the line?

Dwolb 11y ago
I would surmise the answer is N-1 where N is the number of separate gull groups. A species would then consist of two gull groups who can mate and this answer assumes there are no mini circles or triangles in the ring. No idea the academic answer though.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  By that definition a particular individual could simultaneously be a member of two species.
johnchristopher 11y ago
Fascinating ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species