6 ms·

I'm an American parent of mixed French-American children, and I have a very hard time believing that schools are the cause of this. American preschools are way

by dmayle 11y ago

I'm an American parent of mixed French-American children, and I have a very hard time believing that schools are the cause of this. American preschools are way behind French preschools in terms of academic preparation, and yet French children aren't exhibiting the same kinds of problems. If it really is a play issue, it's more likely that American parents don't allow their children more freedom on the playground, instead helicoptering around (I'm guilty) and not allowing them to just handle things themselves.

Ensorceled 11y ago
On a vacation to France last year, my SO and remarked several times on how different the behaviours of children and adults in the playgrounds in cities and towns of France differed from their counterparts in Canada and the US. The interaction in France reminded me much more of my parents and I than the modern parents of North America. It's hard to put a finger on exactly what it was but there was a lot more letting the kids climb on stuff, do "dangerous" things, work out their own problems, fight their own battles and basically run around having fun.
- smtddr 11y ago
  Today's America has a stronger phobia of getting hurt.... or maybe of getting sued. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/may/21/children-weaker-computers-replace-activity http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/may/21/children-weak... http://www.bustle.com/articles/41370-11-stupidly-dangerous-toys-of-the-90s-our-parents-probably-shouldnt-have-let-us-play-with http://www.bustle.com/articles/41370-11-stupidly-dangerous-t... --- I remember some of these toys and they were great fun.
  - hvidgaard 11y ago
    Wow, the only dubious of those choices would be the rocket. The rest of them are great for learning your body, and act responsible. I really blows me mind that a trampoline is seen as a dangerous thing - I'd say a pool is worse. The trampoline is a endless source of fun for children, and I've yet to even hear of someone getting anything worse than a sprained angle from one.
    - DanBC 11y ago
      > anything worse than a sprained ankle There were eleven trampoline deaths in the US between 1990 and 1995. http://www.avon.nhs.uk/phnet/Avonsafe/Trampolines/Trampoline%20Injuries.pdf http://www.avon.nhs.uk/phnet/Avonsafe/Trampolines/Trampoline... There were about 100,000 ER presentations in the US in 2007. These are all preventable accidents. And these accidents happened after considerable work had gone into making trampolines safer. Safety nets help (many injuries happen when people fall off), but here's a passage describing another method of injury: > 3.5 If a trampolinist lands on the mat when out of phase with the other participants, the mat may be rising to meet them and the effect is of meeting a hard surface. All the potential and kinetic energy in the system is transferred to the person, who may be unprepared. Depending on the child’s mass, the energy transfer may be equivalent to falling from 2.2m or 3.4 m equivalent to a fall from a first floor window7. This fact may provide a useful tool to communicate the effect of trampolining to parents and supervisors. None of this means that trampolines should be banned. A manufacturing standard is probably needed for domestic equipment. And people should be encouraged to have adult spotters and safety nets.
      - marcosdumay 11y ago
        > There were eleven trampoline deaths in the US between 1990 and 1995. Looks like an incredibly safe activity. How many deaths were there for people simply falling while they walk?
        apetresc 11y ago
        How much time do people spend walking versus trampolining?
      - throwaway1967 11y ago
        What possible "manufacturing standard" could fix that method of injury you quoted? "According to the American Association of Orthopedic Surgeons (AAOS), 246,875 medically treated trampoline injuries occur annually in the U.S." If kids want to jump, get them a safe inflatable castle and let them jump inside. Those don't suffer from the trampoline problem you delineated, and frankly are more fun. The real problem is finding alternatives for things like stairs and bathtubs.
- lbotos 11y ago
  I had the same reaction as an American living in Berlin. There was a playground right next to my apartment where a whale shaped slide also had a water pump that went right into a sandbox essentially making mud. There were always kids playing and always kids making mud but never once did someone get buried in mud, mud thrown at them... it was _civilized_ play day in and day out. Just kids having fun in a way that I haven't seen with my own eyes for a while. (plural of anecdote is not data, etc etc.)
- mikerichards 11y ago
  Don't fall into the stereotype trap of thinking all parents are helicopters. My kid is 2 and we let him go down water slides and climb up those "safe", modern jungle gym thingies. It is kind of disturbing though that I don't see kids running around exploring the woods and creeks and stuff like we did in the 70s and early 80s.
  - Loughla 11y ago
    It depends on where you live. Kids near me spend all day in the woods digging holes and looking at bugs and stuff just like we used to. But we live where there are no playgrounds in very rural areas. I'm with you. The overly structured method of childhood now is disturbing. Whereas we used to play sandlot baseball, kids are on competitive traveling teams. Where we used to 'explore' the woods and camp on our own, kids are in scouts and have structured hikes every weekend with overnight camps in cabins. etc. etc Maybe it's just rose colored glasses, but I do genuinely believe that the unstructured play of my youth seemed a hell of a lot more fun than what my nieces and nephews are going through with schedules and practices and structure.
- TheGunner 11y ago
  I've made a conscious effort to let my 18 month old do this, even if it does mean the odd grazed knee or bump on the forehead I'd rather her learn from doing and making mistakes than wrap her in cotton wool, she gets more than enough wrapping with cotton wool from my wife :)
sytelus 11y ago
What age are we talking about here? I think below 3 absolutely requires supervision and helicoptering. No?
- abalashov 11y ago
  It really depends on the child. If there's one thing I've learned from inheriting two toddler-aged stepchildren, it's that all kids are developmentally unique, even siblings.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Have a look at something like heuristic play. You take a safe floor surface. Yu scatter a bunch of differnet really world objects. The aim is to have sensory stuff there so you use hair brushes, different fabrics, baskets with differnet weaves, pine cones, safe mirrors, bells, washed chip (uk crisp) packets (that crinkle and are shiny) etc etc. You then place your crawling infant on the floor and then only monitor for safety. So, there's some helicoptering (you want to make sure the child doesn't choke or poke their eye out) but apart from that it's not directive. Crawling infants have a pattern of crawling where they explore their area in geadually increasing loops. They move away from the parent, explore a bit, and return, then move away and explore a bit more, then return. There's an old (1980s / 1990s) british tv show that had a timelapse of this. Tiny kids are fascinating.
  - breakingcups 11y ago
    I would love to see a video of this British TV show, is it on Youtube anywhere that you know.
    - DanBC 11y ago
      I'm not sure. Here are some links about it: http://www.walltowall.co.uk/program/baby-its-you-a-babys-world_26.aspx http://www.walltowall.co.uk/program/baby-its-you-a-babys-wor... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Baby-Its-You-Leanne-Klein/dp/B000A7IHGC http://www.amazon.co.uk/Baby-Its-You-Leanne-Klein/dp/B000A7I...
- 11y ago
buyx 11y ago
It could just be a matter of overdiagnosis of problems from medical professionals in a for-profit healthcare system.
jasonkester 11y ago
Could it be the French approach to baby storage? One thing that strikes me as a parent living in France is seeing all these three and four year old kids strapped in to push chairs at all times with dummies in their mouths. Our kids will be running around feral, trashing the place and getting disapproving looks from the other parents, who seem to be spending the whole of their effort suppressing their kids natural desire to play. Granted, they're well behaved by the time they get to school. But thus far we haven't been inspired to emulate that treatment.

by dmayle 11y ago

Ensorceled 11y ago

On a vacation to France last year, my SO and remarked several times on how different the behaviours of children and adults in the playgrounds in cities and towns of France differed from their counterparts in Canada and the US. The interaction in France reminded me much more of my parents and I than the modern parents of North America. It's hard to put a finger on exactly what it was but there was a lot more letting the kids climb on stuff, do "dangerous" things, work out their own problems, fight their own battles and basically run around having fun.

smtddr 11y ago
Today's America has a stronger phobia of getting hurt.... or maybe of getting sued. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/may/21/children-weaker-computers-replace-activity http://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/may/21/children-weak... http://www.bustle.com/articles/41370-11-stupidly-dangerous-toys-of-the-90s-our-parents-probably-shouldnt-have-let-us-play-with http://www.bustle.com/articles/41370-11-stupidly-dangerous-t... --- I remember some of these toys and they were great fun.
- hvidgaard 11y ago
  Wow, the only dubious of those choices would be the rocket. The rest of them are great for learning your body, and act responsible. I really blows me mind that a trampoline is seen as a dangerous thing - I'd say a pool is worse. The trampoline is a endless source of fun for children, and I've yet to even hear of someone getting anything worse than a sprained angle from one.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    > anything worse than a sprained ankle There were eleven trampoline deaths in the US between 1990 and 1995. http://www.avon.nhs.uk/phnet/Avonsafe/Trampolines/Trampoline%20Injuries.pdf http://www.avon.nhs.uk/phnet/Avonsafe/Trampolines/Trampoline... There were about 100,000 ER presentations in the US in 2007. These are all preventable accidents. And these accidents happened after considerable work had gone into making trampolines safer. Safety nets help (many injuries happen when people fall off), but here's a passage describing another method of injury: > 3.5 If a trampolinist lands on the mat when out of phase with the other participants, the mat may be rising to meet them and the effect is of meeting a hard surface. All the potential and kinetic energy in the system is transferred to the person, who may be unprepared. Depending on the child’s mass, the energy transfer may be equivalent to falling from 2.2m or 3.4 m equivalent to a fall from a first floor window7. This fact may provide a useful tool to communicate the effect of trampolining to parents and supervisors. None of this means that trampolines should be banned. A manufacturing standard is probably needed for domestic equipment. And people should be encouraged to have adult spotters and safety nets.
    - marcosdumay 11y ago
      > There were eleven trampoline deaths in the US between 1990 and 1995. Looks like an incredibly safe activity. How many deaths were there for people simply falling while they walk?
      - apetresc 11y ago
        How much time do people spend walking versus trampolining?
    - throwaway1967 11y ago
      What possible "manufacturing standard" could fix that method of injury you quoted? "According to the American Association of Orthopedic Surgeons (AAOS), 246,875 medically treated trampoline injuries occur annually in the U.S." If kids want to jump, get them a safe inflatable castle and let them jump inside. Those don't suffer from the trampoline problem you delineated, and frankly are more fun. The real problem is finding alternatives for things like stairs and bathtubs.
lbotos 11y ago
I had the same reaction as an American living in Berlin. There was a playground right next to my apartment where a whale shaped slide also had a water pump that went right into a sandbox essentially making mud. There were always kids playing and always kids making mud but never once did someone get buried in mud, mud thrown at them... it was _civilized_ play day in and day out. Just kids having fun in a way that I haven't seen with my own eyes for a while. (plural of anecdote is not data, etc etc.)
mikerichards 11y ago
Don't fall into the stereotype trap of thinking all parents are helicopters. My kid is 2 and we let him go down water slides and climb up those "safe", modern jungle gym thingies. It is kind of disturbing though that I don't see kids running around exploring the woods and creeks and stuff like we did in the 70s and early 80s.
- Loughla 11y ago
  It depends on where you live. Kids near me spend all day in the woods digging holes and looking at bugs and stuff just like we used to. But we live where there are no playgrounds in very rural areas. I'm with you. The overly structured method of childhood now is disturbing. Whereas we used to play sandlot baseball, kids are on competitive traveling teams. Where we used to 'explore' the woods and camp on our own, kids are in scouts and have structured hikes every weekend with overnight camps in cabins. etc. etc Maybe it's just rose colored glasses, but I do genuinely believe that the unstructured play of my youth seemed a hell of a lot more fun than what my nieces and nephews are going through with schedules and practices and structure.
TheGunner 11y ago
I've made a conscious effort to let my 18 month old do this, even if it does mean the odd grazed knee or bump on the forehead I'd rather her learn from doing and making mistakes than wrap her in cotton wool, she gets more than enough wrapping with cotton wool from my wife :)

sytelus 11y ago

What age are we talking about here? I think below 3 absolutely requires supervision and helicoptering. No?

abalashov 11y ago
It really depends on the child. If there's one thing I've learned from inheriting two toddler-aged stepchildren, it's that all kids are developmentally unique, even siblings.
DanBC 11y ago
Have a look at something like heuristic play. You take a safe floor surface. Yu scatter a bunch of differnet really world objects. The aim is to have sensory stuff there so you use hair brushes, different fabrics, baskets with differnet weaves, pine cones, safe mirrors, bells, washed chip (uk crisp) packets (that crinkle and are shiny) etc etc. You then place your crawling infant on the floor and then only monitor for safety. So, there's some helicoptering (you want to make sure the child doesn't choke or poke their eye out) but apart from that it's not directive. Crawling infants have a pattern of crawling where they explore their area in geadually increasing loops. They move away from the parent, explore a bit, and return, then move away and explore a bit more, then return. There's an old (1980s / 1990s) british tv show that had a timelapse of this. Tiny kids are fascinating.
- breakingcups 11y ago
  I would love to see a video of this British TV show, is it on Youtube anywhere that you know.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    I'm not sure. Here are some links about it: http://www.walltowall.co.uk/program/baby-its-you-a-babys-world_26.aspx http://www.walltowall.co.uk/program/baby-its-you-a-babys-wor... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Baby-Its-You-Leanne-Klein/dp/B000A7IHGC http://www.amazon.co.uk/Baby-Its-You-Leanne-Klein/dp/B000A7I...
11y ago

buyx 11y ago

It could just be a matter of overdiagnosis of problems from medical professionals in a for-profit healthcare system.

jasonkester 11y ago

Could it be the French approach to baby storage? One thing that strikes me as a parent living in France is seeing all these three and four year old kids strapped in to push chairs at all times with dummies in their mouths. Our kids will be running around feral, trashing the place and getting disapproving looks from the other parents, who seem to be spending the whole of their effort suppressing their kids natural desire to play. Granted, they're well behaved by the time they get to school. But thus far we haven't been inspired to emulate that treatment.