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Not sure if trying to "trap" the liar is always the right way to go. Once I had to work with a freelance web master and we were trying to cancel his contract an

Not sure if trying to "trap" the liar is always the right way to go. Once I had to work with a freelance web master and we were trying to cancel his contract and make him transfer the domain name to us (an association I was working for). I confronted him by asking politely for a written copy of his contract because I thought he was lying about the length of the contract. He was insulted and claimed there was a verbal agreement several years ago. I don't know if he was right or wrong about that, but after that he would make up things about basically anything (such as, that changing the owner/registrar of our domain would cause his other customers' files to be deleted etc.). We now offered him money to break out of the "contract" early, but now he was already stuck in his lies. If he would say that it was technically possible to move the domain name, he would also expose his earlier lies. After almost a year of arguing with him, he offered to transfer the domain before the end of the "contract". But for "technical reasons" it had to be done after the hosting company had shut down the web site and e-mail, which caused some downtime for us. In retrospect it would have been much easier if I hadn't questioned him in the first time.

jimworm 11y ago
Pointing out a lie does little when it can't be punished with consequences; you were relying on the freelancer's conscience for a favourable outcome. Border agents have the law, manpower, firepower, and territory on their side and are ready to use it at a moment's notice.
zhte415 11y ago
Great example. Perhaps questioning him too and him feeling he was being pushed too far broke his implicit sense of trust, feeling loss of favourability. It may have been a verbal agreement. It may have been his interpretation / perception of a verbal agreement (warped by assumptions, or by time), or it may have been a lie. Hard to tell. A nice simple example that I'll remember, thanks.
IshKebab 11y ago
But that's a different goal - you worked out he was a liar easily. If you want to get someone to do something then yes you have to use different techniques (allow them to save face etc.).
SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago
Are you sure he was a liar and not just an idiot? I had a boss who had some similar really deep-seated beliefs about the technical aspects of domain registration and hosting that he would stubbornly refuse to be corrected on. Oddly enough he's now running his own web development business... Edit: Don't get me wrong, he was a pathological liar as well ;)
- samuellb 11y ago
  Perhaps, and I had this in mind when I talked to him. But it was also non-technical stuff. For instance, one time he said he was on vacation for a month, but then I talked to his friend the day after who insisted that he was not on vacation. And he claimed that a support person of the hosting company had said that the domain couldn't be transferred without deleting all his customers' files. When I asked the support directly, they said it was no problem at all. But I don't think he was doing this for the money (it wasn't much), I think it was more like saving his face, like IshKebab suggested.
larrys 11y ago
"Not sure if trying to "trap" the liar is always the right way to go." Agree almost never the right thing to do. Trapping people makes them dig in their heels typically as opposed to giving them a graceful way to give you what you want. All of this is situation specific of course but as a rule I never call people out on their lies in negotiation. "Once I had to work with a freelance web master and we were trying to cancel his contract and make him transfer the domain name to us (an association I was working for)." Honestly, best way to handle this type of things is to go the "scary lawyer letter" route. Try nicely (without threatening) and if that fails get an attorney to write the "scary lawyer letter". At that point the idea of actually getting some money (rather than having to hire an attorney to defend a verbal contract) would seem very attractive. There are other methods that can be employed (UDRP, trademark law) however they are more expensive and depend on the specifics.
mratzloff 11y ago
You should have got what you wanted (domain transfer) before the question of his contract even came up. After clearing it first, I would have said someone higher than you (ideally having recently joined the organization) found out and made it a requirement that all domain names are owned by the organization. That way the freelancer wouldn't feel nearly as personally threatened. Only then do you end the contract. (Kind of scary that the org didn't have a copy of his contract on file, though. Sounds disorganized.)
dredmorbius 11y ago
As others have noted: this isn't a truth-telling exercise, it's negotiation / achieving desired result. Big difference.
- samuellb 11y ago
  Most people except for me and a colleague seemed to think he was honest, though.
  - dredmorbius 11y ago
    You not only thought he wasn't, but had evidence of it. That again is a different problem: one of communicating your findings to others.

jimworm 11y ago

Pointing out a lie does little when it can't be punished with consequences; you were relying on the freelancer's conscience for a favourable outcome. Border agents have the law, manpower, firepower, and territory on their side and are ready to use it at a moment's notice.

zhte415 11y ago

Great example. Perhaps questioning him too and him feeling he was being pushed too far broke his implicit sense of trust, feeling loss of favourability. It may have been a verbal agreement. It may have been his interpretation / perception of a verbal agreement (warped by assumptions, or by time), or it may have been a lie. Hard to tell. A nice simple example that I'll remember, thanks.

IshKebab 11y ago

But that's a different goal - you worked out he was a liar easily. If you want to get someone to do something then yes you have to use different techniques (allow them to save face etc.).

SmellyGeekBoy 11y ago

Are you sure he was a liar and not just an idiot? I had a boss who had some similar really deep-seated beliefs about the technical aspects of domain registration and hosting that he would stubbornly refuse to be corrected on. Oddly enough he's now running his own web development business... Edit: Don't get me wrong, he was a pathological liar as well ;)

samuellb 11y ago
Perhaps, and I had this in mind when I talked to him. But it was also non-technical stuff. For instance, one time he said he was on vacation for a month, but then I talked to his friend the day after who insisted that he was not on vacation. And he claimed that a support person of the hosting company had said that the domain couldn't be transferred without deleting all his customers' files. When I asked the support directly, they said it was no problem at all. But I don't think he was doing this for the money (it wasn't much), I think it was more like saving his face, like IshKebab suggested.

larrys 11y ago

"Not sure if trying to "trap" the liar is always the right way to go." Agree almost never the right thing to do. Trapping people makes them dig in their heels typically as opposed to giving them a graceful way to give you what you want. All of this is situation specific of course but as a rule I never call people out on their lies in negotiation. "Once I had to work with a freelance web master and we were trying to cancel his contract and make him transfer the domain name to us (an association I was working for)." Honestly, best way to handle this type of things is to go the "scary lawyer letter" route. Try nicely (without threatening) and if that fails get an attorney to write the "scary lawyer letter". At that point the idea of actually getting some money (rather than having to hire an attorney to defend a verbal contract) would seem very attractive. There are other methods that can be employed (UDRP, trademark law) however they are more expensive and depend on the specifics.

mratzloff 11y ago

You should have got what you wanted (domain transfer) before the question of his contract even came up. After clearing it first, I would have said someone higher than you (ideally having recently joined the organization) found out and made it a requirement that all domain names are owned by the organization. That way the freelancer wouldn't feel nearly as personally threatened. Only then do you end the contract. (Kind of scary that the org didn't have a copy of his contract on file, though. Sounds disorganized.)

dredmorbius 11y ago

As others have noted: this isn't a truth-telling exercise, it's negotiation / achieving desired result. Big difference.

samuellb 11y ago
Most people except for me and a colleague seemed to think he was honest, though.
- dredmorbius 11y ago
  You not only thought he wasn't, but had evidence of it. That again is a different problem: one of communicating your findings to others.