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The government has this ability with near all other relationships you have. So much so that they have codified the few that it doesn't apply to. We put lawyers,

by Tactic 11y ago

The government has this ability with near all other relationships you have. So much so that they have codified the few that it doesn't apply to. We put lawyers, doctors, clergy and spouses in a special category but others can be required to divulge any information they have on you with the appropriate order. (What's appropriate is another discussion) Ultimately, realize that any dealing you have is open to the government if they so desire and make that part of your decision making process.

317070 11y ago
As a European citizen, I have a different view on this issue. While I do trust Google/Microsoft with some of my data, and I kind of trust my own government with my data, I don't trust the U.S. government for one bit, especially its judicial system. Luckily, I don't normally need to account for that, and I'd rather keep it like that. But this is like somebody at the other end of the planet changing the small letters of my contract which I made with a local subsidiary of the American giant. The contract was between me and a local vendor, and suddenly we have the American government intervening?
- alan_cx 11y ago
  I'm in the UK, no idea where you are. I don't trust my government one bit with my data, or any one elses. The US so called justice system literally scares the hell out of me. From a UK perspective, its terrifying. Unfortunately for UK subjects, the UK government willingly hands our data over to the US government, and equally willingly allows us to be extradited on little more than a request. Being a European Citizen offers us in the UK very little protection from the US. As others have said, I have very little problem with the likes of google and MS having a lot of data on me, as long as they use it fairly and reasonably, and Im kept informed. Of course we do have the problem of government access to that data.
  - x0054 11y ago
    Out of curiosity, which aspect of the US leal system scares you so much? I was under the impression that UK has a rather similar legal system in many respects, and has a number of problems as well. Personally I am a little scared of the French and German legal systems. And last year I read a very scary article about the Swedish legal system on HN. US is doing a lot of things wrong these days when it comes to privacy, but when compared to EU, I find it to be about the same.
    - JupiterMoon 11y ago
      By European standards prison sentences in the US are very very long. There is also a perception that in the US the system is loaded against people who don't have enough money to pay for a good lawyer.
      - x0054 11y ago
        I am not very familiar with penalties in EU, but I thought that on all the basics, like fraud, robbery, burglary, assault, murder, etc the penalties were comparable to US. Where US does go insane is when it comes to drug and gun crimes. The NRA lobbied for very stiff penalties for anyone who uses a gun in a crime, at least in CA. The drugs on the other hand are just a national obsession for people here in US, so I get that criticism. But on all the basics, I think EU and US are at parity. The Federal prosecutors are quite insane, but Obama has been trying to fix that, and many Federal judges are quite reasonable. But again, if US does need adjust something, it's the Federal system. As for money and lawyers, US, at least in CA has excellent public defenders. I might be biased, because a few of my good friends are public defenders. But also the smartest man I ever meat, at least when it comes to law, was head Public Defender in San Diego. Public defender job in a major city is a very competitive position. That's my first hand experience in CA. Not sure about other states.
        JupiterMoon 11y ago
        According to the prison documentaries I've seen EU penalties in general are much lower (like half to one third) than US ones for the named crimes. And we don't have death sentences over here so that changes perception a lot.
jo909 11y ago
Exactly. The police can read all my letters if a judge allows it. They can tap my phone, bug my bedroom, track my movement, perform a cavity search, take my blood and DNA, detain me, and if I make really bad decisions even kill me. And I am totally fine with that in principle, only not with a few somewhat minor details and missing checks and balances. I want _my_ government to be able to do all that, according to the laws of _my_ country, which I am able to change and influence.
- fijal 11y ago
  Yes, that is fine. I don't want _your_ government, which I can't elect to read my data at all however. A good example is say data mining for giving/not giving visas. It's a much more murky area without a typical due process - there is someone making a judgement call what is "more" or "less" likely, not proving anything beyond reasonable doubt. I would vastly prefer if I control what I give to _your_ government for dealing with this kind of process as opposed to what they can mine from random US companies about me (that I might not even have an account with - facebook knows a lot about me and who my friends are despite me not having an account there and not agreeing to any T&C at all).
colechristensen 11y ago
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." The US Government does _not_ have the legal authority to arbitrarily collect or seize data without a warrant specifying exactly where and what they're looking for. >So much so that they have codified the few that it doesn't apply to. There are a few exceptions on whom you can get warrants for, but we're not complaining about warrants with probable cause. The complaint is that our "persons, houses, papers, and effects" are being violated without probable cause and without "particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized".
- wvenable 11y ago
  The Fourth Amendment seems to be pretty merky when it comes to data about you belonging to and stored with other entities.
  - guelo 11y ago
    The "3rd party doctrine" is a bullshit interpretation and it needs to die. When I go through the trouble of coming up with a long complicated password and setup two factor authentication it's pretty obvious that I have "an expectation of privacy". Maybe what the tech companies need to do is have a checkmark on sign up that says "I expect my data to be private".
    - Filligree 11y ago
      It sounds like a joke, but would this work?
      - task_queue 11y ago
        He clicked the check box... there's nothing we can do here images entire backup anyway
CosmicHorrorSam 11y ago
What you said may truly capture what's necessary- we need to codify additional relationships for the digital space that enjoy this level of protection, and codify them such that violations result in criminal cases being thrown out and/or reparations being paid! I envision this like the police force and falsifying evidence/respecting your rights- there's certainly some of all that happening, but police are eager to prove that they've done things correctly, because if evidence falsification or certain rights trampling happens, it result not only in internal probes and scrutiny, but dismissed potential convictions! The incentives generally line up.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
>doctors Might want to remove them from your list. Mandated reporting by therapists and doctors does more than most anything else I can think of to stop those most needing therapy from seeking it. From potential offenders who fear being outed to victims who fear their therapy records being made public at trial and used against them.

by Tactic 11y ago

317070 11y ago

As a European citizen, I have a different view on this issue. While I do trust Google/Microsoft with some of my data, and I kind of trust my own government with my data, I don't trust the U.S. government for one bit, especially its judicial system. Luckily, I don't normally need to account for that, and I'd rather keep it like that. But this is like somebody at the other end of the planet changing the small letters of my contract which I made with a local subsidiary of the American giant. The contract was between me and a local vendor, and suddenly we have the American government intervening?

alan_cx 11y ago
I'm in the UK, no idea where you are. I don't trust my government one bit with my data, or any one elses. The US so called justice system literally scares the hell out of me. From a UK perspective, its terrifying. Unfortunately for UK subjects, the UK government willingly hands our data over to the US government, and equally willingly allows us to be extradited on little more than a request. Being a European Citizen offers us in the UK very little protection from the US. As others have said, I have very little problem with the likes of google and MS having a lot of data on me, as long as they use it fairly and reasonably, and Im kept informed. Of course we do have the problem of government access to that data.
- x0054 11y ago
  Out of curiosity, which aspect of the US leal system scares you so much? I was under the impression that UK has a rather similar legal system in many respects, and has a number of problems as well. Personally I am a little scared of the French and German legal systems. And last year I read a very scary article about the Swedish legal system on HN. US is doing a lot of things wrong these days when it comes to privacy, but when compared to EU, I find it to be about the same.
  - JupiterMoon 11y ago
    By European standards prison sentences in the US are very very long. There is also a perception that in the US the system is loaded against people who don't have enough money to pay for a good lawyer.
    - x0054 11y ago
      I am not very familiar with penalties in EU, but I thought that on all the basics, like fraud, robbery, burglary, assault, murder, etc the penalties were comparable to US. Where US does go insane is when it comes to drug and gun crimes. The NRA lobbied for very stiff penalties for anyone who uses a gun in a crime, at least in CA. The drugs on the other hand are just a national obsession for people here in US, so I get that criticism. But on all the basics, I think EU and US are at parity. The Federal prosecutors are quite insane, but Obama has been trying to fix that, and many Federal judges are quite reasonable. But again, if US does need adjust something, it's the Federal system. As for money and lawyers, US, at least in CA has excellent public defenders. I might be biased, because a few of my good friends are public defenders. But also the smartest man I ever meat, at least when it comes to law, was head Public Defender in San Diego. Public defender job in a major city is a very competitive position. That's my first hand experience in CA. Not sure about other states.
      - JupiterMoon 11y ago
        According to the prison documentaries I've seen EU penalties in general are much lower (like half to one third) than US ones for the named crimes. And we don't have death sentences over here so that changes perception a lot.

jo909 11y ago

Exactly. The police can read all my letters if a judge allows it. They can tap my phone, bug my bedroom, track my movement, perform a cavity search, take my blood and DNA, detain me, and if I make really bad decisions even kill me. And I am totally fine with that in principle, only not with a few somewhat minor details and missing checks and balances. I want _my_ government to be able to do all that, according to the laws of _my_ country, which I am able to change and influence.

fijal 11y ago
Yes, that is fine. I don't want _your_ government, which I can't elect to read my data at all however. A good example is say data mining for giving/not giving visas. It's a much more murky area without a typical due process - there is someone making a judgement call what is "more" or "less" likely, not proving anything beyond reasonable doubt. I would vastly prefer if I control what I give to _your_ government for dealing with this kind of process as opposed to what they can mine from random US companies about me (that I might not even have an account with - facebook knows a lot about me and who my friends are despite me not having an account there and not agreeing to any T&C at all).

colechristensen 11y ago

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." The US Government does _not_ have the legal authority to arbitrarily collect or seize data without a warrant specifying exactly where and what they're looking for. >So much so that they have codified the few that it doesn't apply to. There are a few exceptions on whom you can get warrants for, but we're not complaining about warrants with probable cause. The complaint is that our "persons, houses, papers, and effects" are being violated without probable cause and without "particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized".

wvenable 11y ago
The Fourth Amendment seems to be pretty merky when it comes to data about you belonging to and stored with other entities.
- guelo 11y ago
  The "3rd party doctrine" is a bullshit interpretation and it needs to die. When I go through the trouble of coming up with a long complicated password and setup two factor authentication it's pretty obvious that I have "an expectation of privacy". Maybe what the tech companies need to do is have a checkmark on sign up that says "I expect my data to be private".
  - Filligree 11y ago
    It sounds like a joke, but would this work?
    - task_queue 11y ago
      He clicked the check box... there's nothing we can do here images entire backup anyway

CosmicHorrorSam 11y ago

What you said may truly capture what's necessary- we need to codify additional relationships for the digital space that enjoy this level of protection, and codify them such that violations result in criminal cases being thrown out and/or reparations being paid! I envision this like the police force and falsifying evidence/respecting your rights- there's certainly some of all that happening, but police are eager to prove that they've done things correctly, because if evidence falsification or certain rights trampling happens, it result not only in internal probes and scrutiny, but dismissed potential convictions! The incentives generally line up.

Lawtonfogle 11y ago

>doctors Might want to remove them from your list. Mandated reporting by therapists and doctors does more than most anything else I can think of to stop those most needing therapy from seeking it. From potential offenders who fear being outed to victims who fear their therapy records being made public at trial and used against them.