8 ms·

The Third Generation Nest Thermostat

41 points by jacobsimon 11y ago

ape4 11y ago
In the video you seem to stick it to your wall. Is that really how its done?
- ceejayoz 11y ago
  You're sticking it to the backplate, which holds the wires that run to your furnace. No difference between v2 and v3 in this - the video shows it.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  You wire a plastic Nest bracket up[0], the bracket redirects the inputs, and when you place the Nest into the bracket it makes the correct contacts with the back of the thermostat. Wiring up a Nest isn't too bad, you just need the precious C wire. Most of these fancy thermostats require the C wire for electrical power, and many homes lack it. They have a work around, but it requires re-wiring and you lose some functionality (do not recommend). PS - No idea why nobody offers an AC adapter as an alternative to the C wire. All the C does is provide electrical power anyway... [0] The middle white thing: http://i.imgur.com/kNUPqvF.jpg http://i.imgur.com/kNUPqvF.jpg
  - hvjackson 11y ago
    You don't need a C wire for the Nest, although if you have one it's recommended to use it. The Nest has a small internal battery and can trickle-charge from the R and W wires.
    - mmastrac 11y ago
      They say it's only "recommended", but my furnace was short cycling without it and required me to run a C wire to it. I'd say that it's pretty much mandatory for a modern furnace.
    - Someone1234 11y ago
      If you dive into the details there's a ton of disclaimers, limitations, and gotchas running without the C wire. See [0] amongst others. As I said above, I do not recommend. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. This is definitely one of those cases. If you want your Nest to be running problem free on most systems (or any other smart thermostat for that matter), just assume you need the C. [0] https://nest.com/support/article/When-Nest-needs-a-common-C-wire https://nest.com/support/article/When-Nest-needs-a-common-C-...
    - mikepurvis 11y ago
      I've been running mine for a few months without the C wire, but I've definitely had the occasional bit of odd behaviour from it (eg, dead battery), that I believe will be resolved when I get around to running it some 18/5.
    - simmons 11y ago
      As others have mentioned, there can be issues with running without a C wire. Their "power stealing" technique did not seem to be effective for keeping my first-generation Nest from running out of battery. (Although there may be some variables in my situation that contribute to the problem.) I blogged about it here: http://cafbit.com/entry/nest_learning_thermostat http://cafbit.com/entry/nest_learning_thermostat
  - jtoberon 11y ago
    FWIW, the Lux Geo can run on on 24VAC, AA batteries, or micro-USB. I don't know how long the batteries last though. There are lots of reasons why most fancy thermostats need a lot of power. For example, a fancy screen is hungry, WiFi is an expensive protocol (e.g. as compared to ZWave), etc.. Compare the Lux screen to the Nest, and you'll see at least one reason why they think they can get away with batteries. Another option, patented by Honeywell I think, is called "power stealing." Here's an interesting article on the subject: https://www.ecobee.com/2014/01/the-problem-with-power-stealing/ https://www.ecobee.com/2014/01/the-problem-with-power-steali....
  - function_seven 11y ago
    > They have a work around, but it requires re-wiring and you lose some functionality (do not recommend). Are you talking about re-purposing the G wire to become the C wire? I had to do that just recently, and I lost the ability to cycle the fan on by itself (without calling for heat or cooling). Not a big loss in my opinion, but my system is dead simple. The most infuriating thing about it is that the previous HVAC installer cut the fifth wire off instead of sparing it out.
Someone1234 11y ago
Meh. Nest largely created this market, and their product is fine. But since the Nest appeared their competitors have upped their game and in my opinion overtaken the Nest. For example the "Honeywell Wi-Fi Smart Thermostat," same price as the Nest, arguably easier to use, and doesn't require a third party app or website to get basic things done. Nest might win awards for simplicity and design, and it is still better than traditional black & white thermostats with push buttons, but it definitely isn't leading the market at this point, in fact I'd argue Nest is sacrificing the user experience for the sake of that design. I can teach my grandparents to use the Honeywell Smart Thermostat, I cannot say the same about Nest beyond the basics.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Disagree. I still give the Nest away to family members and friends because of how simple it is to use. Does the Honeywell integrate with your utility to provide you rebates if you use their load shedding program? Does it have AirWave (the nest calculates how long it can keep running a fan over cold coils after shutting the compressor down to keep cooling your home while saving energy)? Does it integrate with Google Now? Does it show you the history of your heating or air conditioning over the last 7 days? Does it have an API you can interface with? My 86 year old Grandmother loves her Nest. If she can use it, anyone can. Nest second place in the market. Puh-lease!
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    > I still give the Nest away to family members and friends because of how simple it is to use. The tap through menus are anything but pleasant. Just watch this video: https://youtu.be/YD3DfoJ3TVw?t=7m24s https://youtu.be/YD3DfoJ3TVw?t=7m24s To use a phone analogy it is like using a Nokia 3100 to write text messages, tap tap tap A, tap tap tap B, tap tap tap C. You have to do this literally in some cases to set the name. Contrast that with this: https://youtu.be/CmvX6YgAqMI?t=1m18s https://youtu.be/CmvX6YgAqMI?t=1m18s To use the phone analogy once again, this is like using an iPhone to write text messages. One is a modern accessible UX not dissimilar from a smartphone, the other is clunky and dated, you're working around limitations of the physical design. > Does the Honeywell integrate with your utility to provide you rebates if you use their load shedding program? Neither the Nest or Honeywell do. > Does it have AirWave, integrate with Google Now, an API It is a thermostat. It might have some of these, but they're beyond the scope of what I expect or would use from either one. It does offer history, most smart thermostats do. > Nest second place in the market. Puh-lease! That's what people said about Blackberry too. I think touchscreen interfaces are a proven technology that consumers love. The Nest could come back from this, they can offer additional product lines that address what their competitors are doing. Some people legitimately do want a minimalist product. There is a real market for that. Others want a straight forward product with an iPad-like UX.
simoes 11y ago
What exactly are the main differences here between this third gen and the previous version?
- dionidium 11y ago
  I'm wondering the same. All I can get from the marketing copy are the following: * "It’s slimmer and sleeker with a bigger, sharper display" * "Now the Nest Thermostat does something new. It’s called Farsight and it lights up to show you the temperature you’ve set or the time. You can even choose a digital or analog clock face."
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    You can see comparison images of the three here: https://nest.com/support/article/How-can-I-tell-which-Nest-Learning-Thermostat-I-have https://nest.com/support/article/How-can-I-tell-which-Nest-L... They appear to have both reduced the brazel size and increased the display's size. Additionally it is a little thinner than the 2nd gen and massively thinner than the 1st gen. Definitely an improvement at the same price point.
    - dionidium 11y ago
      Definitely an improvement at the same price point. Sure, but not a big enough difference (for most folks) to consider upgrading from a 2nd-gen.
      - ceejayoz 11y ago
        > Sure, but not a big enough difference (for most folks) to consider upgrading from a 2nd-gen. Agreed, but thermostats really shouldn't be something we have to replace every 1-2 years anyways. Hell, I've a v1 (.12) Nest and see nothing compelling to make me upgrade - and that makes me happy.
        dionidium 11y ago
S_A_P 11y ago
I have 2 of the second gen nests. There is a plate that installs on the wall(with screws and attaches to the wire), then it kind of snaps into place on the mount. It feels pretty substantial, and I don't worry that it will pop off inadvertently. So while the nest itself is nicely built, I feel like the wall plate is kind of chintzy and doesn't really look "professional".
- jasonellis 11y ago
  The wall plate is only needed if your drywall is already has a large cutout. When I took my old thermostat off the hole was small enough that I just painted around it and was able to mount the Nest without the mounting plate. I agree, it doesn't look quite as good with the mounting plate.
  - S_A_P 11y ago
    agreed, and my wall did have an unnecessarily large cut out(house was built in 78 and it had some monstrous analog thermostat on it).
- ocdtrekkie 11y ago
  It's definitely better without the plate, but if you have a giant hole in your drywall, or it's not painted there, or what-have-you, it's nice to have the option in the interim.
Frozenlock 11y ago
Like Aral Balkan said... "dumb fucks" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8supIUj6c&feature=youtu.be&t=42m52s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8supIUj6c&feature=youtu.be...
- tcfunk 11y ago
  It's worth noting that the "dumb fucks" thing was apparently taken from a Mark Zuckerberg quote.
  - swagv 11y ago
    You can read the context earlier in the very same video cited above: https://youtu.be/jh8supIUj6c?t=4m5s https://youtu.be/jh8supIUj6c?t=4m5s
e28eta 11y ago
Still no HomeKit support? Worst part of the Google acquisition, IMO. I've actually considered replacing my Nest with one of their competitors that does support HomeKit. I set up SiriProxy a couple years ago, mainly for the Nest support. I think that broke with iOS 7 though.
antimatter 11y ago
Can anyone with a Nest tell me if it's possible to turn off all the smart features and turn it into a dumb on/off switch? I really like the design but don't care for any of the complicated smart features and would much rather be able manually control it from my phone. I recall that this was not possible with reviews of the first gen Nest.
- knz 11y ago
  Yes you can do that. The app and hardware let you set it to either heat, cool, heat/cool, or off. There are probably cheaper ways to do this (IoT hub + zwave controller?).
- josephwegner 11y ago
  Yes, you can, very simply. Just turn off learning and don't put in any schedule.
- iijj 11y ago
  Yes, there are individual settings to turn off the 'Sense' features like the learning-schedule, auto-away. If you literally mean using it as an on/off switch... I don't think you can do that without just cranking the temp between min and max. There is a function to run the furnace fan for X minutes, but you can't directly tell it to run the heating and AC for a period of time.
ghaff 11y ago
What is the failure mode of a Nest these days? i.e. if it crashes or otherwise has a failure what mode does it default to? This isn't a purely theoretical concern as I know someone who had an older Nest fail and they said it defaulted to just being off. I'm sure this is a rare event (and could theoretically happen with any thermostat or the furnace itself of course) but living in the Northeast and traveling a lot I hesitate to introduce anything into my furnace control system that could increase the potential probability of failure.
- john_b 11y ago
  What failure mode would you want, if not off? Having a failed sensor+controller control temperature in any way isn't what I'd want. One could have a backup thermostat as a fallback, but I doubt their average customer wants anything that complicated.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    I'd want it to failsafe to some sensible minimum temperature: 65 degrees F or whatever.
    - Phlarp 11y ago
      If the temp sensor is the point of failure, this "failsafe" would "fail not very safely"
  - jellicle 11y ago
    The problem is that a failure mode of "off", in the winter, in cold climates, means you come home to $30,000 of water damage and pipe replacement which probably won't be covered by home insurance. The "fail safe" mode here needs to be "maintain moderate temperatures, neither burning nor freezing". Simple mechanical thermostats do this extremely well.
    - venomsnake 11y ago
      >Simple mechanical thermostats do this extremely well. But they don't have api with which to auto post your daily temperature to tumblr. Or security vulnerabilities.
achr2 11y ago
I have a nest and like it, but the issue that I hope they have fixed is the inability to calibrate the temperature against a secondary thermometer. This is a major issue as the device is designed to work with a large span of voltages that cause significantly different internal heat dissipation. On a friend's older 35v system, the nest read around 26°C when the room was in fact closer to 22.
lvs 11y ago
Why does anyone need a bigger display on their thermostat? In fact, having a dedicated display at all is only vaguely justifiable, since we all have displays in our pockets, on our walls, etc.
- ocdtrekkie 11y ago
  They specifically said they went with a larger display so they can detect when you enter the room and display the temperature in a font size you can see from anywhere in said room.
  - tgb 11y ago
    But why would I want that? I only check my thermostat if I think it's misbehaving. Does the Nest misbehave that much?
    - ocdtrekkie 11y ago
      I'm not saying I find it a need. (And I can check my phone if I want to know, regardless of what room I'm in.) But that's why they did it.
swagv 11y ago
How easy will this one be to hack?
datahack 11y ago
I was really hoping to see software upgrades available to existing nest customers. I don't need a thinner version with a larger screen (it's nice, but it's not a smartphone and I don't think most people will care). Tesla gives you a better car with ota firmware updates. How come a thermostat startup with Google's resources can't do the same thing or better?
makeitsuckless 11y ago
Still doesn't support OpenTherm, and therefor useless (or at least of limited use) for much of Europe.

41 points by jacobsimon 11y ago

ape4 11y ago

In the video you seem to stick it to your wall. Is that really how its done?

ceejayoz 11y ago
You're sticking it to the backplate, which holds the wires that run to your furnace. No difference between v2 and v3 in this - the video shows it.
Someone1234 11y ago
You wire a plastic Nest bracket up[0], the bracket redirects the inputs, and when you place the Nest into the bracket it makes the correct contacts with the back of the thermostat. Wiring up a Nest isn't too bad, you just need the precious C wire. Most of these fancy thermostats require the C wire for electrical power, and many homes lack it. They have a work around, but it requires re-wiring and you lose some functionality (do not recommend). PS - No idea why nobody offers an AC adapter as an alternative to the C wire. All the C does is provide electrical power anyway... [0] The middle white thing: http://i.imgur.com/kNUPqvF.jpg http://i.imgur.com/kNUPqvF.jpg
- hvjackson 11y ago
  You don't need a C wire for the Nest, although if you have one it's recommended to use it. The Nest has a small internal battery and can trickle-charge from the R and W wires.
  - mmastrac 11y ago
    They say it's only "recommended", but my furnace was short cycling without it and required me to run a C wire to it. I'd say that it's pretty much mandatory for a modern furnace.
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    If you dive into the details there's a ton of disclaimers, limitations, and gotchas running without the C wire. See [0] amongst others. As I said above, I do not recommend. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. This is definitely one of those cases. If you want your Nest to be running problem free on most systems (or any other smart thermostat for that matter), just assume you need the C. [0] https://nest.com/support/article/When-Nest-needs-a-common-C-wire https://nest.com/support/article/When-Nest-needs-a-common-C-...
  - mikepurvis 11y ago
    I've been running mine for a few months without the C wire, but I've definitely had the occasional bit of odd behaviour from it (eg, dead battery), that I believe will be resolved when I get around to running it some 18/5.
  - simmons 11y ago
    As others have mentioned, there can be issues with running without a C wire. Their "power stealing" technique did not seem to be effective for keeping my first-generation Nest from running out of battery. (Although there may be some variables in my situation that contribute to the problem.) I blogged about it here: http://cafbit.com/entry/nest_learning_thermostat http://cafbit.com/entry/nest_learning_thermostat
- jtoberon 11y ago
  FWIW, the Lux Geo can run on on 24VAC, AA batteries, or micro-USB. I don't know how long the batteries last though. There are lots of reasons why most fancy thermostats need a lot of power. For example, a fancy screen is hungry, WiFi is an expensive protocol (e.g. as compared to ZWave), etc.. Compare the Lux screen to the Nest, and you'll see at least one reason why they think they can get away with batteries. Another option, patented by Honeywell I think, is called "power stealing." Here's an interesting article on the subject: https://www.ecobee.com/2014/01/the-problem-with-power-stealing/ https://www.ecobee.com/2014/01/the-problem-with-power-steali....
- function_seven 11y ago
  > They have a work around, but it requires re-wiring and you lose some functionality (do not recommend). Are you talking about re-purposing the G wire to become the C wire? I had to do that just recently, and I lost the ability to cycle the fan on by itself (without calling for heat or cooling). Not a big loss in my opinion, but my system is dead simple. The most infuriating thing about it is that the previous HVAC installer cut the fifth wire off instead of sparing it out.

Someone1234 11y ago

Meh. Nest largely created this market, and their product is fine. But since the Nest appeared their competitors have upped their game and in my opinion overtaken the Nest. For example the "Honeywell Wi-Fi Smart Thermostat," same price as the Nest, arguably easier to use, and doesn't require a third party app or website to get basic things done. Nest might win awards for simplicity and design, and it is still better than traditional black & white thermostats with push buttons, but it definitely isn't leading the market at this point, in fact I'd argue Nest is sacrificing the user experience for the sake of that design. I can teach my grandparents to use the Honeywell Smart Thermostat, I cannot say the same about Nest beyond the basics.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
Disagree. I still give the Nest away to family members and friends because of how simple it is to use. Does the Honeywell integrate with your utility to provide you rebates if you use their load shedding program? Does it have AirWave (the nest calculates how long it can keep running a fan over cold coils after shutting the compressor down to keep cooling your home while saving energy)? Does it integrate with Google Now? Does it show you the history of your heating or air conditioning over the last 7 days? Does it have an API you can interface with? My 86 year old Grandmother loves her Nest. If she can use it, anyone can. Nest second place in the market. Puh-lease!
- Someone1234 11y ago
  > I still give the Nest away to family members and friends because of how simple it is to use. The tap through menus are anything but pleasant. Just watch this video: https://youtu.be/YD3DfoJ3TVw?t=7m24s https://youtu.be/YD3DfoJ3TVw?t=7m24s To use a phone analogy it is like using a Nokia 3100 to write text messages, tap tap tap A, tap tap tap B, tap tap tap C. You have to do this literally in some cases to set the name. Contrast that with this: https://youtu.be/CmvX6YgAqMI?t=1m18s https://youtu.be/CmvX6YgAqMI?t=1m18s To use the phone analogy once again, this is like using an iPhone to write text messages. One is a modern accessible UX not dissimilar from a smartphone, the other is clunky and dated, you're working around limitations of the physical design. > Does the Honeywell integrate with your utility to provide you rebates if you use their load shedding program? Neither the Nest or Honeywell do. > Does it have AirWave, integrate with Google Now, an API It is a thermostat. It might have some of these, but they're beyond the scope of what I expect or would use from either one. It does offer history, most smart thermostats do. > Nest second place in the market. Puh-lease! That's what people said about Blackberry too. I think touchscreen interfaces are a proven technology that consumers love. The Nest could come back from this, they can offer additional product lines that address what their competitors are doing. Some people legitimately do want a minimalist product. There is a real market for that. Others want a straight forward product with an iPad-like UX.

simoes 11y ago

What exactly are the main differences here between this third gen and the previous version?

dionidium 11y ago
I'm wondering the same. All I can get from the marketing copy are the following: * "It’s slimmer and sleeker with a bigger, sharper display" * "Now the Nest Thermostat does something new. It’s called Farsight and it lights up to show you the temperature you’ve set or the time. You can even choose a digital or analog clock face."
- Someone1234 11y ago
  You can see comparison images of the three here: https://nest.com/support/article/How-can-I-tell-which-Nest-Learning-Thermostat-I-have https://nest.com/support/article/How-can-I-tell-which-Nest-L... They appear to have both reduced the brazel size and increased the display's size. Additionally it is a little thinner than the 2nd gen and massively thinner than the 1st gen. Definitely an improvement at the same price point.
  - dionidium 11y ago
    Definitely an improvement at the same price point. Sure, but not a big enough difference (for most folks) to consider upgrading from a 2nd-gen.
    - ceejayoz 11y ago
      > Sure, but not a big enough difference (for most folks) to consider upgrading from a 2nd-gen. Agreed, but thermostats really shouldn't be something we have to replace every 1-2 years anyways. Hell, I've a v1 (.12) Nest and see nothing compelling to make me upgrade - and that makes me happy.
      - dionidium 11y ago

S_A_P 11y ago

I have 2 of the second gen nests. There is a plate that installs on the wall(with screws and attaches to the wire), then it kind of snaps into place on the mount. It feels pretty substantial, and I don't worry that it will pop off inadvertently. So while the nest itself is nicely built, I feel like the wall plate is kind of chintzy and doesn't really look "professional".

jasonellis 11y ago
The wall plate is only needed if your drywall is already has a large cutout. When I took my old thermostat off the hole was small enough that I just painted around it and was able to mount the Nest without the mounting plate. I agree, it doesn't look quite as good with the mounting plate.
- S_A_P 11y ago
  agreed, and my wall did have an unnecessarily large cut out(house was built in 78 and it had some monstrous analog thermostat on it).
ocdtrekkie 11y ago
It's definitely better without the plate, but if you have a giant hole in your drywall, or it's not painted there, or what-have-you, it's nice to have the option in the interim.

Frozenlock 11y ago

Like Aral Balkan said... "dumb fucks" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8supIUj6c&feature=youtu.be&t=42m52s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8supIUj6c&feature=youtu.be...

tcfunk 11y ago
It's worth noting that the "dumb fucks" thing was apparently taken from a Mark Zuckerberg quote.
- swagv 11y ago
  You can read the context earlier in the very same video cited above: https://youtu.be/jh8supIUj6c?t=4m5s https://youtu.be/jh8supIUj6c?t=4m5s

e28eta 11y ago

Still no HomeKit support? Worst part of the Google acquisition, IMO. I've actually considered replacing my Nest with one of their competitors that does support HomeKit. I set up SiriProxy a couple years ago, mainly for the Nest support. I think that broke with iOS 7 though.

antimatter 11y ago

Can anyone with a Nest tell me if it's possible to turn off all the smart features and turn it into a dumb on/off switch? I really like the design but don't care for any of the complicated smart features and would much rather be able manually control it from my phone. I recall that this was not possible with reviews of the first gen Nest.

knz 11y ago
Yes you can do that. The app and hardware let you set it to either heat, cool, heat/cool, or off. There are probably cheaper ways to do this (IoT hub + zwave controller?).
josephwegner 11y ago
Yes, you can, very simply. Just turn off learning and don't put in any schedule.
iijj 11y ago
Yes, there are individual settings to turn off the 'Sense' features like the learning-schedule, auto-away. If you literally mean using it as an on/off switch... I don't think you can do that without just cranking the temp between min and max. There is a function to run the furnace fan for X minutes, but you can't directly tell it to run the heating and AC for a period of time.

ghaff 11y ago

What is the failure mode of a Nest these days? i.e. if it crashes or otherwise has a failure what mode does it default to? This isn't a purely theoretical concern as I know someone who had an older Nest fail and they said it defaulted to just being off. I'm sure this is a rare event (and could theoretically happen with any thermostat or the furnace itself of course) but living in the Northeast and traveling a lot I hesitate to introduce anything into my furnace control system that could increase the potential probability of failure.

john_b 11y ago
What failure mode would you want, if not off? Having a failed sensor+controller control temperature in any way isn't what I'd want. One could have a backup thermostat as a fallback, but I doubt their average customer wants anything that complicated.
- ghaff 11y ago
  I'd want it to failsafe to some sensible minimum temperature: 65 degrees F or whatever.
  - Phlarp 11y ago
    If the temp sensor is the point of failure, this "failsafe" would "fail not very safely"
- jellicle 11y ago
  The problem is that a failure mode of "off", in the winter, in cold climates, means you come home to $30,000 of water damage and pipe replacement which probably won't be covered by home insurance. The "fail safe" mode here needs to be "maintain moderate temperatures, neither burning nor freezing". Simple mechanical thermostats do this extremely well.
  - venomsnake 11y ago
    >Simple mechanical thermostats do this extremely well. But they don't have api with which to auto post your daily temperature to tumblr. Or security vulnerabilities.

achr2 11y ago

I have a nest and like it, but the issue that I hope they have fixed is the inability to calibrate the temperature against a secondary thermometer. This is a major issue as the device is designed to work with a large span of voltages that cause significantly different internal heat dissipation. On a friend's older 35v system, the nest read around 26°C when the room was in fact closer to 22.

lvs 11y ago

Why does anyone need a bigger display on their thermostat? In fact, having a dedicated display at all is only vaguely justifiable, since we all have displays in our pockets, on our walls, etc.

ocdtrekkie 11y ago
They specifically said they went with a larger display so they can detect when you enter the room and display the temperature in a font size you can see from anywhere in said room.
- tgb 11y ago
  But why would I want that? I only check my thermostat if I think it's misbehaving. Does the Nest misbehave that much?
  - ocdtrekkie 11y ago
    I'm not saying I find it a need. (And I can check my phone if I want to know, regardless of what room I'm in.) But that's why they did it.

swagv 11y ago

How easy will this one be to hack?

datahack 11y ago

I was really hoping to see software upgrades available to existing nest customers. I don't need a thinner version with a larger screen (it's nice, but it's not a smartphone and I don't think most people will care). Tesla gives you a better car with ota firmware updates. How come a thermostat startup with Google's resources can't do the same thing or better?

makeitsuckless 11y ago

Still doesn't support OpenTherm, and therefor useless (or at least of limited use) for much of Europe.