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Related: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/mar/21/books-interview-david-graeber-the-utopia-of-rules http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/mar/21/books-inter

Related: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/mar/21/books-interview-david-graeber-the-utopia-of-rules http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/mar/21/books-interview... The traditional capitalist view of human productivity is misanthropic and authoritarian. It makes sense if you want to justify hierarchical relationships and reduce the autonomy of the masses. There ought to be plenty of engineers and programmers on HN. They should know how valuable autonomy and meaning is to our productivity. This is universal: Everyone likes doing good work and doing exactly the right amount of work. No one likes working too little or working needlessly much. Yet, we live in a society where the politicians start honking like geese when there 'aren't enough jobs'. That's like saying there aren't enough bugs for me to fix. When the work's done right, there's no work to be done and we move on to something new. Not so in our system. When the work's done, you better find more work or you will fall into calamity and you will have deserved it. When you tie all human existence to producing value for your boss, work becomes a slavish social contract and not the means by which human beings improve the world for ourselves and each other. Trust people, and they act trustworthy. Respect people, and they act respectable. Give people the trust and respect required to give them autonomy in their work, and they will do amazing things for themselves and you. The most lovely software I work with is produced for free, and it tends to be amazingly good work, done from a position of respect, trust, and generosity. I'm sure many people are tired of my lefty whinging about capitalism, but the longer I live, the more it doesn't make sense for my personal productivity or fulfillment. I'm pretty tired of having a sword hanging by a thread over my head in a cynical attempt to make me 'be a productive member of society'. It makes me less productive! It makes me less happy! I'm tired of having to see everyone whose labor goes into the comfort of my life as a greedy adversary who would destroy me if this system weren't around to 'protect me'.

tariqali34 11y ago
"When the work's done right, there's no work to be done and we move on to something new." The work is never done right. You talk about engineers and programmers right? Well they should know that their work never ends; there's always the need to continually improve the product so that you don't "fall behind", fix the rampant bugs that occur when you add in new features, fix the bugs that were caused by you fixing the previous bugs, realize that the customers actually wanted something different, need to refactor the code properly to match the latest design fad, have to rewrite the program in a brand new language... And all this work has to be done. Because if you don't continually upgrade your product, then your product will quickly become old-fashioned and obsolete. So, when we say "there's no work to be done", it's a blatant lie. Either it is an excuse we make up so that we can leave something that we obviously hate doing, or it's because our employers are unwilling or unable to pay for it to be done. Lying may make you happy, but it makes me less happy. I prefer misanthropy over delusion.
- danharaj 11y ago
  Open Source software survives without needing masters with whips above or the ruin of poverty below. When there's work to be done the people who do the work know there's work to be done and they will do the work. > Either it is an excuse we make up so that we can leave something that we obviously hate doing Don't force people to do things they hate doing in order to survive when the amount of work it requires to feed and keep everyone comfortable is a far smaller quantity. > or it's because our employers are unwilling or unable to pay for it to be done. Don't have a system where work is only done at the whim and for the benefit of property owners. If the work is never done, then people will keep working. They will do that because they want to work. It does not follow that we need bosses, hierarchy, management, government, property, militaries, and police forces to make us do the work just because there is work to be done. So where did I lie? P.S. I'm sorry for being aggressive. I am emphatic about this; I am not doing the work I want to do because I need to do the work someone with money wants me to do. Because people will toss me into the garbage disposal if I am not working for money. This article indicates that I am not alone; I am part of a majority.
  - tariqali34 11y ago
    I accept your apology about being aggressive, especially since I may have been a bit too empathic myself (about work). The "lie" is about you saying that when work is done, people move on. I think the truth is that people say work is done so that they can move on, but work can never be done. We do seem to agree on that point though, so I should probably retract your comment "lies". You're fine with people leaving 'projects' incomplete if they hate it...and I'm fine with that too. But work is indeed left incomplete, and that's why I made my comment. If it makes you feel better, replace "employers" with "the open source community", and redefine pay to mean code/maintenance instead of money. I think my point still holds.
    - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
      > I accept your apology about being aggressive, especially since I may have been a bit too empathic myself (about work). The "lie" is about you saying that when work is done, people move on. I think the truth is that people say work is done so that they can move on, but work can never be done. Sure, but the perfect has always been the enemy of the good. If we actually applied this advice, we'd never ship anything. At some point, things are good enough to send them off and go home.
havko 11y ago
I agree in the sense that a lot less work should revolve around the "bottom line" and increasing profits. I just can't wrap my head around your statement of moving on to something new. The majority of people are not capable of producing the lovely free software you enjoy.
dpc_pw 11y ago
Engineers and programmers are usually where they are because they do have a "drive" and "passion" for what they do. Applying attitude of that group to whole population is just a selection bias. A lot of population has no learning drive, and is mostly interested in pleasures, not self-actualization. Can this be changed with proper education? Probably, at least to some extent. Not to mention that even software developer work is not all that rosy. The open source ecosystem thrives where the work to be done is interesting and brings peer recognition (write a new sexy, fast, featureful framework XYZ), and sucks at the places that require more mundane and less esteemed effort (like QA, testing, documentation, integration).

tariqali34 11y ago

"When the work's done right, there's no work to be done and we move on to something new." The work is never done right. You talk about engineers and programmers right? Well they should know that their work never ends; there's always the need to continually improve the product so that you don't "fall behind", fix the rampant bugs that occur when you add in new features, fix the bugs that were caused by you fixing the previous bugs, realize that the customers actually wanted something different, need to refactor the code properly to match the latest design fad, have to rewrite the program in a brand new language... And all this work has to be done. Because if you don't continually upgrade your product, then your product will quickly become old-fashioned and obsolete. So, when we say "there's no work to be done", it's a blatant lie. Either it is an excuse we make up so that we can leave something that we obviously hate doing, or it's because our employers are unwilling or unable to pay for it to be done. Lying may make you happy, but it makes me less happy. I prefer misanthropy over delusion.

danharaj 11y ago
Open Source software survives without needing masters with whips above or the ruin of poverty below. When there's work to be done the people who do the work know there's work to be done and they will do the work. > Either it is an excuse we make up so that we can leave something that we obviously hate doing Don't force people to do things they hate doing in order to survive when the amount of work it requires to feed and keep everyone comfortable is a far smaller quantity. > or it's because our employers are unwilling or unable to pay for it to be done. Don't have a system where work is only done at the whim and for the benefit of property owners. If the work is never done, then people will keep working. They will do that because they want to work. It does not follow that we need bosses, hierarchy, management, government, property, militaries, and police forces to make us do the work just because there is work to be done. So where did I lie? P.S. I'm sorry for being aggressive. I am emphatic about this; I am not doing the work I want to do because I need to do the work someone with money wants me to do. Because people will toss me into the garbage disposal if I am not working for money. This article indicates that I am not alone; I am part of a majority.
- tariqali34 11y ago
  I accept your apology about being aggressive, especially since I may have been a bit too empathic myself (about work). The "lie" is about you saying that when work is done, people move on. I think the truth is that people say work is done so that they can move on, but work can never be done. We do seem to agree on that point though, so I should probably retract your comment "lies". You're fine with people leaving 'projects' incomplete if they hate it...and I'm fine with that too. But work is indeed left incomplete, and that's why I made my comment. If it makes you feel better, replace "employers" with "the open source community", and redefine pay to mean code/maintenance instead of money. I think my point still holds.
  - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
    > I accept your apology about being aggressive, especially since I may have been a bit too empathic myself (about work). The "lie" is about you saying that when work is done, people move on. I think the truth is that people say work is done so that they can move on, but work can never be done. Sure, but the perfect has always been the enemy of the good. If we actually applied this advice, we'd never ship anything. At some point, things are good enough to send them off and go home.

havko 11y ago

I agree in the sense that a lot less work should revolve around the "bottom line" and increasing profits. I just can't wrap my head around your statement of moving on to something new. The majority of people are not capable of producing the lovely free software you enjoy.

dpc_pw 11y ago

Engineers and programmers are usually where they are because they do have a "drive" and "passion" for what they do. Applying attitude of that group to whole population is just a selection bias. A lot of population has no learning drive, and is mostly interested in pleasures, not self-actualization. Can this be changed with proper education? Probably, at least to some extent. Not to mention that even software developer work is not all that rosy. The open source ecosystem thrives where the work to be done is interesting and brings peer recognition (write a new sexy, fast, featureful framework XYZ), and sucks at the places that require more mundane and less esteemed effort (like QA, testing, documentation, integration).