5 ms·

> "I embrace the mundane work and find insights while exploring it." I love this quote. I'm still early in my career, and unfortunately find myself focusing fa

> "I embrace the mundane work and find insights while exploring it." I love this quote. I'm still early in my career, and unfortunately find myself focusing far too much at the big picture and becoming overwhelmed by it. Any tips for "embracing the mundane"?

gdubs 11y ago
Read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
- chadgeidel 11y ago
  I've asked this question before on HN and was down voted mercilessly, so I'll try to rephrase. Why does everyone point to Zen as such a significant work? I've tried to read it on 3 separate occasions now, and I'm not "getting it". I'm fully willing to be completely wrong about this, but it frustrates me that Pirsig focuses so much on what I read as "the absolute value of quality" when - IMHO, it's merely a relative term. I get the point he's making early in the book about "doing it yourself" vs "buying it", but as the book goes on I get more and more frustrated with what appears to me to be the central premise. Can you point me to a "guide to reading 'Zen'" or something similar which can show me where I'm going wrong?
  - glibgil 11y ago
    Why don't you just finish reading the book or just leave it alone? I understand there are books that are hard to read, but this is very much a do-or-don't thing. How can we help you finish a book? Just read it or don't. Edit: I'm getting down-voted so let me put a fine point on it. Reading a book is a pretty low risk commitment. You could be reading dozens of a books a year. The book we are talking about is considered to be a "great American novel" and less risky still. No one should have to convince you to finish it. If you don't like it enough to finish it, then don't bother. http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/ http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/
    - chadgeidel 11y ago
      I'm not down voting you, but you didn't actually answer my question. I didn't ask for help to finish the book. I asked for perspective why it's a "great novel".
      - glibgil 11y ago
        I know, but the idea of struggling with a book? Can't you just think about it after you finish reading it?
        zardo 11y ago
        You can't just hold the entirety of the massive brain dump that is a novel in your head at once. You have to stop and think along the way. Or at least, I do.
      - jschwartzi 11y ago
        Because problem solving isn't finding the right action so much as finding the right perspective.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
      Agree with 'dozens of books a year' but there are thousands and thousands of good books out there and one has to triage.
  - radiorental 11y ago
    I think there might be some insight in this video that might help you put a deeper perspective on the book https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xg5O0l7ybY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xg5O0l7ybY (specifically the quote about playing music)
  - keithflower 11y ago
    > Can you point me to a "guide to reading 'Zen'" or something similar which can show me where I'm going wrong? "Guidebook to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance": http://www.amazon.com/Guidebook-Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance/dp/0688060692 http://www.amazon.com/Guidebook-Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenan... Both Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and the Guidebook are highly recommended. Just read.
    - chadgeidel 11y ago
      Thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for!
  - TheGrimDerp1 11y ago
    There is a series of excellent talks on youtube by a guy named Alan Watts from the early 50s - highly recommend.
  - kragen 11y ago
    Maybe it's not that you don't get the book; maybe you just disagree with it to such an extent that it infuriates you, just as its author disagreed with Plato.
  - ninkendo 11y ago
    IMO the whole "metaphysics of quality" thing needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. As you find out later in the book, he actually was diagnosed as schizophrenic (and went through electroshock therapy as a result), and it becomes pretty clear throughout the book that his whole thesis doesn't actually make any sense, and is more the ramblings of an insane person. There's a few insights to be taken from the book but I largely agree with you that after reading it a few times, it's not worth the praise that it gets.
  - gdubs 11y ago
    Without going to deep into the book (which to be honest is one of the most difficult books I've ever read), I was thinking here of a passage in which he describes fixing his engine and paying close, mindful attention to every step. He makes a comment about how the next great invention could come from an observation about the most mundane thing -- and I really believe that to be true. Some of the best ideas come when we're in the midst of flow in our work. Realizing that the mundane details of our work hold a lot of beauty -- when we really slow down and pay attention -- is a liberating idea.
- sremani 11y ago
  Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance felt esoteric for me. My recommendation is "So good that they can't ignore you", much more straight forward and actionable.
adventured 11y ago
With it being understood that what works varies a lot from person to person - I've found that doing one thing I really like, and one thing that's mundane, works for me. Over the course of a project, if you consistently make progress against the mundane, by the end there usually isn't much of a wall of it left. It's a compromise with myself, this way I avoid doing nothing but mundane work in a long-stretch. When I was ~20 years old I'd make the mistake of pushing the mundane work off to the end, so all that I had left at that point was work I didn't enjoy. That made it a miserable grind to get to launch.
radiorental 11y ago
I would not discount big picture thinking, that skill on the right team is invaluable. Taming the beast is the challenge. Regarding being overwhelmed, there are a number of tricks. I recommend 'climbing the mountain one step at a time', keep a regular cadence and move on to a different task if you find yourself stalled. I wrote some thoughts here http://www.pauric.net/blog/?p=430 http://www.pauric.net/blog/?p=430 Regarding finding insight in the mundane, I recommend listening to the BBC audio article and watching the Google Talk video I link to here: http://www.pauric.net/blog/?p=171 http://www.pauric.net/blog/?p=171 Finally, if you're a dev - the ability to see the woods for the trees is going to serve you well over the long run. A lot of good devs lack in this area, but it's something that can dig a team out of a hole. edit: apologies, the bbc podcast I referred to is gone. If I find a copy I'll update.
- ArekDymalski 11y ago
  >I wrote some thoughts here http://www.pauric.net/blog/?p=430 http://www.pauric.net/blog/?p=430 The post is really nice, however the linked images at inside.mathworks.com are gone.
  - radiorental 11y ago
    Thank you, will asap
yourapostasy 11y ago
If you like eating sushi, then watching the documentary "Jiro Dreams of Sushi" might resonate enough to help you gain some insight into this passion for finding contentment in what appears mundane to the outsider.
jakejake 11y ago
I feel that as you are plugging away on what many might consider "boring" programming tasks, you become inspired to write your code more cleanly, efficiently, faster as well as automate things and improve your process. If you are focused on one little mundane thing, you have time to really think it over and explore all of the possibilities. I find that creative people will find a way to be creative no matter the task, so nothing is ever really boring. As you do this with more and more little, boring things, before you know it you will have developed a mastery of your craft.

gdubs 11y ago

Read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

chadgeidel 11y ago
I've asked this question before on HN and was down voted mercilessly, so I'll try to rephrase. Why does everyone point to Zen as such a significant work? I've tried to read it on 3 separate occasions now, and I'm not "getting it". I'm fully willing to be completely wrong about this, but it frustrates me that Pirsig focuses so much on what I read as "the absolute value of quality" when - IMHO, it's merely a relative term. I get the point he's making early in the book about "doing it yourself" vs "buying it", but as the book goes on I get more and more frustrated with what appears to me to be the central premise. Can you point me to a "guide to reading 'Zen'" or something similar which can show me where I'm going wrong?
- glibgil 11y ago
  Why don't you just finish reading the book or just leave it alone? I understand there are books that are hard to read, but this is very much a do-or-don't thing. How can we help you finish a book? Just read it or don't. Edit: I'm getting down-voted so let me put a fine point on it. Reading a book is a pretty low risk commitment. You could be reading dozens of a books a year. The book we are talking about is considered to be a "great American novel" and less risky still. No one should have to convince you to finish it. If you don't like it enough to finish it, then don't bother. http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/ http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/
  - chadgeidel 11y ago
    I'm not down voting you, but you didn't actually answer my question. I didn't ask for help to finish the book. I asked for perspective why it's a "great novel".
    - glibgil 11y ago
      I know, but the idea of struggling with a book? Can't you just think about it after you finish reading it?
      - zardo 11y ago
        You can't just hold the entirety of the massive brain dump that is a novel in your head at once. You have to stop and think along the way. Or at least, I do.
    - jschwartzi 11y ago
      Because problem solving isn't finding the right action so much as finding the right perspective.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    Agree with 'dozens of books a year' but there are thousands and thousands of good books out there and one has to triage.
- radiorental 11y ago
  I think there might be some insight in this video that might help you put a deeper perspective on the book https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xg5O0l7ybY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xg5O0l7ybY (specifically the quote about playing music)
- keithflower 11y ago
  > Can you point me to a "guide to reading 'Zen'" or something similar which can show me where I'm going wrong? "Guidebook to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance": http://www.amazon.com/Guidebook-Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance/dp/0688060692 http://www.amazon.com/Guidebook-Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenan... Both Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and the Guidebook are highly recommended. Just read.
  - chadgeidel 11y ago
    Thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for!
- TheGrimDerp1 11y ago
  There is a series of excellent talks on youtube by a guy named Alan Watts from the early 50s - highly recommend.
- kragen 11y ago
  Maybe it's not that you don't get the book; maybe you just disagree with it to such an extent that it infuriates you, just as its author disagreed with Plato.
- ninkendo 11y ago
  IMO the whole "metaphysics of quality" thing needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. As you find out later in the book, he actually was diagnosed as schizophrenic (and went through electroshock therapy as a result), and it becomes pretty clear throughout the book that his whole thesis doesn't actually make any sense, and is more the ramblings of an insane person. There's a few insights to be taken from the book but I largely agree with you that after reading it a few times, it's not worth the praise that it gets.
- gdubs 11y ago
  Without going to deep into the book (which to be honest is one of the most difficult books I've ever read), I was thinking here of a passage in which he describes fixing his engine and paying close, mindful attention to every step. He makes a comment about how the next great invention could come from an observation about the most mundane thing -- and I really believe that to be true. Some of the best ideas come when we're in the midst of flow in our work. Realizing that the mundane details of our work hold a lot of beauty -- when we really slow down and pay attention -- is a liberating idea.
sremani 11y ago
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance felt esoteric for me. My recommendation is "So good that they can't ignore you", much more straight forward and actionable.

adventured 11y ago

With it being understood that what works varies a lot from person to person - I've found that doing one thing I really like, and one thing that's mundane, works for me. Over the course of a project, if you consistently make progress against the mundane, by the end there usually isn't much of a wall of it left. It's a compromise with myself, this way I avoid doing nothing but mundane work in a long-stretch. When I was ~20 years old I'd make the mistake of pushing the mundane work off to the end, so all that I had left at that point was work I didn't enjoy. That made it a miserable grind to get to launch.

radiorental 11y ago

I would not discount big picture thinking, that skill on the right team is invaluable. Taming the beast is the challenge. Regarding being overwhelmed, there are a number of tricks. I recommend 'climbing the mountain one step at a time', keep a regular cadence and move on to a different task if you find yourself stalled. I wrote some thoughts here http://www.pauric.net/blog/?p=430 http://www.pauric.net/blog/?p=430 Regarding finding insight in the mundane, I recommend listening to the BBC audio article and watching the Google Talk video I link to here: http://www.pauric.net/blog/?p=171 http://www.pauric.net/blog/?p=171 Finally, if you're a dev - the ability to see the woods for the trees is going to serve you well over the long run. A lot of good devs lack in this area, but it's something that can dig a team out of a hole. edit: apologies, the bbc podcast I referred to is gone. If I find a copy I'll update.

ArekDymalski 11y ago
>I wrote some thoughts here http://www.pauric.net/blog/?p=430 http://www.pauric.net/blog/?p=430 The post is really nice, however the linked images at inside.mathworks.com are gone.
- radiorental 11y ago
  Thank you, will asap

yourapostasy 11y ago

If you like eating sushi, then watching the documentary "Jiro Dreams of Sushi" might resonate enough to help you gain some insight into this passion for finding contentment in what appears mundane to the outsider.

jakejake 11y ago

I feel that as you are plugging away on what many might consider "boring" programming tasks, you become inspired to write your code more cleanly, efficiently, faster as well as automate things and improve your process. If you are focused on one little mundane thing, you have time to really think it over and explore all of the possibilities. I find that creative people will find a way to be creative no matter the task, so nothing is ever really boring. As you do this with more and more little, boring things, before you know it you will have developed a mastery of your craft.