4 ms·

The short answer is bad employers of minimum wage McJobs fuck it up for the rest of us.

blisterpeanuts 11y ago
How so? People complain, on others' behalf, about minwage jobs yet offer no particular solution other than: force the min wage up, causing inflation and unemployment. I'd love to see someone open a McDonalds-like fast food restaurant that paid $20 or $25 per hour, plus decent benefits, and make a profit. If it were possible to do, why can't anyone do it?
- spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
  It works like this 1 Bad employers exploit a loop hole to fuck over poor people 2 It becomes a political issue "something must be done" 3 Laws are passed in haste that negatively effect contractors on $1000/day
- dalke 11y ago
  Why do you say there's "no particular solution" when the NLRB did offer a particular solution, in the decision linked to by this WaPo article? Moreover, that solution concerns many issues besides wages, including "employment qualifications, work hours, breaks, productivity standards, staffing levels, work rules and performance, the speed of the lines, [and] dismissal." As I suggested elsewhere, it seems like the questions you have can easily be answered by the many articles on this topic, including the WaPo article and the primary references. You instead ask other commenters for answers to your questions, which is unlikely to get you far as most HN readers are 1) not here to educate you and 2) not knowledgeable about labor law and practices. As an example of one of the things which often come up in this discussion, McDonald's in Denmark pays $20/hour. See http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/05/15/fight-for-15-try-21/ http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/05/15/fight-for-1... or http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/15/global-mcdonalds-protests_n_5324938.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/15/global-mcdonalds-pr... or http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/sep/03/other-98/can-you-make-45000year-mcdonalds-denmark/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/sep/03/... as some of the many articles on the topic. And there are no minimum wage laws in Denmark. Can explain why it is that McDonald's can make a profit in Denmark while paying $20/hour, but (according to you) can't do so in the US?
  - blisterpeanuts 11y ago
    Sorry to disagree, but legislating a right-to-strike relationship with a company that is once-removed is not a solution; it's just a concession to a union demand that temp/contract workers be paid more money. The net result will undoubtedly be much higher prices for goods and services, and a number of start-ups will either fail, or be forced to downsize. Regarding McDonald's in Denmark: do they operate on a franchise basis there as in the U.S., or are the stores directly owned and operated by corporate McDonald's? What kind of prices are there on the foods they sell? I didn't say it was impossible to make a profit at $20/hour; I DID say I'd love to see it, and I'd like an explanation of how it would be competitive in the U.S. economy. In Denmark, $20/hour is not the same as $20/hour in the U.S., because Danish income tax is 55.6%. Also, they have a VAT of 25% on most goods and services (not sure if it applies to fast food). Thus, that $20 is really closer to $10 or $15 in U.S. purchasing power parity terms.
    - dalke 11y ago
      "with a company that is once-removed" The NLRB decision is very careful to argue that there is a 'joint-employer status under the National Labor Relations Act', which is different from your statement that this is a 'once-removed' case. Where do you disagree with their decision? Where is the case law to back your belief? Because they insist that the case law is in their favor and instead that for the last few decades: > the Board, without explanation, has since imposed additional requirements for finding joint-employer status, which have no clear basis in the Third Circuit’s decision, in the common law, or in the text or policies of the Act. The Board has never articulated how these additional requirements are compelled by the Act or by the common- law definition of the employment relationship. They appear inconsistent with prior case law that has not been expressly overruled. I take it then that you have not read the decision? It is the central topic at hand, and my quotes from the document, which directly counter comments you made, suggest that you are arguing at this point from ignorance of the actual subject. " do they operate on a franchise basis there as in the U.S" I gave you three links. They covered most of not all of the issues you just raised, including comparisons between the different economies. I also pointed out that there are a lot of articles on this specific topic. What additional questions do you have that are not addressed by those links? One of the links says: > According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the average tax burden in Denmark is 38.2 percent, while in America, it is 31.3 percent. So taxes are about a fifth higher. Most people, if given the choice, would accept a 20 percent hike in taxes in exchange for making twice as much. which tells me that your analysis ("that $20 is really closer to $10 or $15 in") is simply incorrect. At this point I've concluded that you don't actually care about the topic, other than to defend personal beliefs, which appear to be anti-labor.
- jlarocco 11y ago
  > I'd love to see someone open a McDonalds-like fast food restaurant that paid $20 or $25 per hour, plus decent benefits, and make a profit. If it were possible to do, why can't anyone do it? I can almost see that working as a novelty restaurant. Kind of a trendy, high end fast food place with high quality food and really expensive prices, where you can go and tell your friends it's a good place because they pay decent wages. But it'll never over take Burger King and McDonalds. People eating at McDonalds want fast and cheap more than they want fair wages for fast food employees.
  - DiabloD3 11y ago
    Haven't you largely described, simply, better burger joints? Almost every town in the US has at least one better place than the usual fast food places that is not quite as fast, but has good service, good wages, and good food. McD, Burger King, Wendy's, etc, are exceptions to the rule, imo.
  - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
    So basically, Clover Food Labs?
- x0x0 11y ago
  And yet there is, at very best, mixed evidence that minimum wage increases cause increased unemployment. Particularly in the food sector: people still need to eat, and they need to eat where they are. Inflation isn't very high either.

How so? People complain, on others' behalf, about minwage jobs yet offer no particular solution other than: force the min wage up, causing inflation and unemployment. I'd love to see someone open a McDonalds-like fast food restaurant that paid $20 or $25 per hour, plus decent benefits, and make a profit. If it were possible to do, why can't anyone do it?

spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
It works like this 1 Bad employers exploit a loop hole to fuck over poor people 2 It becomes a political issue "something must be done" 3 Laws are passed in haste that negatively effect contractors on $1000/day
dalke 11y ago
Why do you say there's "no particular solution" when the NLRB did offer a particular solution, in the decision linked to by this WaPo article? Moreover, that solution concerns many issues besides wages, including "employment qualifications, work hours, breaks, productivity standards, staffing levels, work rules and performance, the speed of the lines, [and] dismissal." As I suggested elsewhere, it seems like the questions you have can easily be answered by the many articles on this topic, including the WaPo article and the primary references. You instead ask other commenters for answers to your questions, which is unlikely to get you far as most HN readers are 1) not here to educate you and 2) not knowledgeable about labor law and practices. As an example of one of the things which often come up in this discussion, McDonald's in Denmark pays $20/hour. See http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/05/15/fight-for-15-try-21/ http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/05/15/fight-for-1... or http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/15/global-mcdonalds-protests_n_5324938.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/15/global-mcdonalds-pr... or http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/sep/03/other-98/can-you-make-45000year-mcdonalds-denmark/ http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/sep/03/... as some of the many articles on the topic. And there are no minimum wage laws in Denmark. Can explain why it is that McDonald's can make a profit in Denmark while paying $20/hour, but (according to you) can't do so in the US?
- blisterpeanuts 11y ago
  Sorry to disagree, but legislating a right-to-strike relationship with a company that is once-removed is not a solution; it's just a concession to a union demand that temp/contract workers be paid more money. The net result will undoubtedly be much higher prices for goods and services, and a number of start-ups will either fail, or be forced to downsize. Regarding McDonald's in Denmark: do they operate on a franchise basis there as in the U.S., or are the stores directly owned and operated by corporate McDonald's? What kind of prices are there on the foods they sell? I didn't say it was impossible to make a profit at $20/hour; I DID say I'd love to see it, and I'd like an explanation of how it would be competitive in the U.S. economy. In Denmark, $20/hour is not the same as $20/hour in the U.S., because Danish income tax is 55.6%. Also, they have a VAT of 25% on most goods and services (not sure if it applies to fast food). Thus, that $20 is really closer to $10 or $15 in U.S. purchasing power parity terms.
  - dalke 11y ago
    "with a company that is once-removed" The NLRB decision is very careful to argue that there is a 'joint-employer status under the National Labor Relations Act', which is different from your statement that this is a 'once-removed' case. Where do you disagree with their decision? Where is the case law to back your belief? Because they insist that the case law is in their favor and instead that for the last few decades: > the Board, without explanation, has since imposed additional requirements for finding joint-employer status, which have no clear basis in the Third Circuit’s decision, in the common law, or in the text or policies of the Act. The Board has never articulated how these additional requirements are compelled by the Act or by the common- law definition of the employment relationship. They appear inconsistent with prior case law that has not been expressly overruled. I take it then that you have not read the decision? It is the central topic at hand, and my quotes from the document, which directly counter comments you made, suggest that you are arguing at this point from ignorance of the actual subject. " do they operate on a franchise basis there as in the U.S" I gave you three links. They covered most of not all of the issues you just raised, including comparisons between the different economies. I also pointed out that there are a lot of articles on this specific topic. What additional questions do you have that are not addressed by those links? One of the links says: > According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the average tax burden in Denmark is 38.2 percent, while in America, it is 31.3 percent. So taxes are about a fifth higher. Most people, if given the choice, would accept a 20 percent hike in taxes in exchange for making twice as much. which tells me that your analysis ("that $20 is really closer to $10 or $15 in") is simply incorrect. At this point I've concluded that you don't actually care about the topic, other than to defend personal beliefs, which appear to be anti-labor.
jlarocco 11y ago
> I'd love to see someone open a McDonalds-like fast food restaurant that paid $20 or $25 per hour, plus decent benefits, and make a profit. If it were possible to do, why can't anyone do it? I can almost see that working as a novelty restaurant. Kind of a trendy, high end fast food place with high quality food and really expensive prices, where you can go and tell your friends it's a good place because they pay decent wages. But it'll never over take Burger King and McDonalds. People eating at McDonalds want fast and cheap more than they want fair wages for fast food employees.
- DiabloD3 11y ago
  Haven't you largely described, simply, better burger joints? Almost every town in the US has at least one better place than the usual fast food places that is not quite as fast, but has good service, good wages, and good food. McD, Burger King, Wendy's, etc, are exceptions to the rule, imo.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  So basically, Clover Food Labs?
x0x0 11y ago
And yet there is, at very best, mixed evidence that minimum wage increases cause increased unemployment. Particularly in the food sector: people still need to eat, and they need to eat where they are. Inflation isn't very high either.