6 ms·

Took me a minute to find out what "actually free" means: https://developer.amazon.com/public/solutions/underground/docs/understanding-amazon-underground https:

by sigmar 11y ago

Took me a minute to find out what "actually free" means: https://developer.amazon.com/public/solutions/underground/docs/understanding-amazon-underground https://developer.amazon.com/public/solutions/underground/do... "Interstitial Advertisements When a user launches an Amazon Underground app for the first time, a welcome message in the form of an interstitial ad plays. In subsequent times that a user either launches or resumes the app, paid interstitial ads will also sometimes play." Interesting. So amazon deals with putting in the ads and the app dev gets paid for every minute the app is used. Seems like an interesting idea, probably useful for games that are very engaging (read: time drain)

modeless 11y ago
Finally, someone figures out the real reason Amazon is doing this. Thank you for doing the job all the journalists reporting on the press release failed to do.
- ilovehops 11y ago
  If ^ is true, why does amazon feel the need to disclose this at all? Seems like a weird set of words that either displays culture or product. They could easily say nothing and sign the same deal.
- austenallred 11y ago
  Of course there are ads. Amazon never implied that there wouldn't be. This isn't Amazon trying to be sneaky. The opening lines say that everything is free and developers get paid according to use. How did you expect that would happen? It has to be subsidized in some way, and in the context of an app store that means ads. When you download an app in the app store it says "free" not "free with ads" because you don't have to pay any money for it. It's still, technically, free.
  - aiiane 11y ago
    Not mentioning ads at all in an announcement about a service that adds ads to apps to replace the fee isn't being sneaky?
    - austenallred 11y ago
      I don't think so. Facebook doesn't say "This is free with ads!" It says it's free to use. It just so happens that ads are byproduct of using it. It's pretty obvious in the documentation and on every page except for the original product announcement that it's ad supported, but I don't expect Amazon to use a bunch of their 200-word product announcement to justify why there are ads. The important point is that it's free, meaning I don't pay for it with dollars. When is the last time a free product shouted "BTW it's only free because of ads?!" I felt like it was implied, and I don't expect marketing to be like, "And here are the tradeoffs you have to make and that you might not like." When you download an app from the current app store (Apple or Google) it says "Free," even if the app includes ads. I don't feel slighted one bit.
      - mangeletti 11y ago
        Well, "free" means there is no consideration on the part of the party receiving what would be deemed as a gift. Looking at ads and having your data sold is not free by any means.
        austenallred 11y ago
        It doesn't mean that at all. Free (gratis), by definition, means you don't have to pay for anything. You don't spend dollars. Watching TV is free. Using Google and Facebook are free. You download free apps from the app store. And those all have ads. If you want to repurpose the word to mean "free with no ads" you can do that, but you can't expect others to hold to that definition.
        TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
        So you think the Free Software Foundation should really be called the Ad-Supported Software Foundation? "Free" and "ad-supported" mean completely different things, and always have done.
  - modeless 11y ago
    Oh, I definitely expected ads, I'm not surprised at all, and I don't think Amazon is being excessively sneaky (though it would be nice if this information was more prominent on their developer pages). I'm mostly disappointed in the authors of the multiple news articles I saw about this [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] for parroting Amazon's "Free Apps" PR without doing enough research to find out about the ads Amazon is using to pay for the deal. [1] http://techcrunch.com/2015/08/26/amazon-underground-is-an-android-app-store-with-only-actually-free-apps/ http://techcrunch.com/2015/08/26/amazon-underground-is-an-an... [2] http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/08/amazons-new-games-and-apps-store-free-for-users-12%C2%A2-an-hour-for-devs/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/08/amazons-new-games-and-... [3] http://www.engadget.com/2015/08/26/amazon-underground-free-apps/ http://www.engadget.com/2015/08/26/amazon-underground-free-a... [4] http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2490149,00.asp http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2490149,00.asp [5] http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/26/9210071/amazon-underground-free-apps http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/26/9210071/amazon-underground...
    - sigmar 11y ago
      Wow. Those links are pretty damning. Ars mentioned there are ads in the Underground app itself, but didn't mention anything about ads being added to apps. Techcrunch only mentions ads in explaining how previous app revenue models used banner ads. The Verge doesn't mention ads at all. Embarrassing.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- ohazi 11y ago
  No, the real reason Amazon is doing this is that they want to get the Amazon App Store onto Google and carrier branded Android phones. It's a fight for survival and relevance against Google Play.
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    Is amazon really in a fight to the death with Google play? Can I buy cat food there?
    - hosh 11y ago
      It's less Google Play and more breaking the control Google has over the Android platform, despite Android being open-source and spread out across a number of manufacturers. Google Play is a critical piece of that control. The ads look like a way to defray that cost. I wonder what Samsung will try to do. Something similar or something from out of their own playbook?
      - tdmule 11y ago
        Partner with Amazon? I know when I got a Galaxy S4 the OEM Android included the Amazon App and Google Play stores. While they may do something different in Korea, it seems like a reasonable move in markets where Amazon has traction.
      - jsprogrammer 11y ago
        Does Amazon actually provide compelling apps on their store? The comments here and this new advertising platform would suggest otherwise.
        jon-wood 11y ago
        Amazon's app store is a cesspit, full of either very similarly named Apps to ones on the play store, but that do something different, or people just straight up stealing other people's Apps and selling them themselves.
  - 11y ago
anindyabd 11y ago
To be fair, Amazon didn't claim there wouldn't be any ads: https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1003016361&ref_=mas_surl_undrgrnd https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1003016... The promise is that there will be no payments for the app or for in-app purchases. Also, I've spent some time playing Angry Birds through Underground, and the ads seem much more unobtrusive compared to getting the "freemium" app through Google Play. I guess the philosophy is similar to the "Special Offers" on the Kindle e-book readers.
- sigmar 11y ago
  I wasn't attacking them for claiming there weren't ads, sorry if it read that way. It's just that I read that entire page posted here, then went to my email and read the email they sent to developers, and I still didn't understand how or why they were doing this. I feel like they should have mentioned the word "ads" somewhere to explain how this would be paid for, rather than saying "actually free" over and over.
- aiiane 11y ago
  Still, it's kind of underhanded to emphasize the "it's like the premium apps, but free!" as if it's some revolutionary new model... when in reality it's just the typical ad-supported version of an app that customers are familiar with. (The model may be new for developers, but the promotional page is entirely aimed at customers.)
icefox 11y ago
> Interesting. So amazon deals with putting in the ads and the app dev gets paid for every minute the app is used. Seems like an interesting idea, probably useful for games that are very engaging (read: time drain) Except if you can buy the virtual currency + goods without any real consequences you will be able to quickly explore everything grinding games have to offer.
imglorp 11y ago
Is that it, just ads, or is the app also keeping an eye on the user?
jerf 11y ago
So, how much can I pay Amazon to make the ads go away?
- LanceH 11y ago
  After you find a game you like enough to pay for, you could always buy it directly.

by sigmar 11y ago

modeless 11y ago

Finally, someone figures out the real reason Amazon is doing this. Thank you for doing the job all the journalists reporting on the press release failed to do.

ilovehops 11y ago
If ^ is true, why does amazon feel the need to disclose this at all? Seems like a weird set of words that either displays culture or product. They could easily say nothing and sign the same deal.
austenallred 11y ago
Of course there are ads. Amazon never implied that there wouldn't be. This isn't Amazon trying to be sneaky. The opening lines say that everything is free and developers get paid according to use. How did you expect that would happen? It has to be subsidized in some way, and in the context of an app store that means ads. When you download an app in the app store it says "free" not "free with ads" because you don't have to pay any money for it. It's still, technically, free.
- aiiane 11y ago
  Not mentioning ads at all in an announcement about a service that adds ads to apps to replace the fee isn't being sneaky?
  - austenallred 11y ago
    I don't think so. Facebook doesn't say "This is free with ads!" It says it's free to use. It just so happens that ads are byproduct of using it. It's pretty obvious in the documentation and on every page except for the original product announcement that it's ad supported, but I don't expect Amazon to use a bunch of their 200-word product announcement to justify why there are ads. The important point is that it's free, meaning I don't pay for it with dollars. When is the last time a free product shouted "BTW it's only free because of ads?!" I felt like it was implied, and I don't expect marketing to be like, "And here are the tradeoffs you have to make and that you might not like." When you download an app from the current app store (Apple or Google) it says "Free," even if the app includes ads. I don't feel slighted one bit.
    - mangeletti 11y ago
      Well, "free" means there is no consideration on the part of the party receiving what would be deemed as a gift. Looking at ads and having your data sold is not free by any means.
      - austenallred 11y ago
        It doesn't mean that at all. Free (gratis), by definition, means you don't have to pay for anything. You don't spend dollars. Watching TV is free. Using Google and Facebook are free. You download free apps from the app store. And those all have ads. If you want to repurpose the word to mean "free with no ads" you can do that, but you can't expect others to hold to that definition.
        TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
        So you think the Free Software Foundation should really be called the Ad-Supported Software Foundation? "Free" and "ad-supported" mean completely different things, and always have done.
- modeless 11y ago
  Oh, I definitely expected ads, I'm not surprised at all, and I don't think Amazon is being excessively sneaky (though it would be nice if this information was more prominent on their developer pages). I'm mostly disappointed in the authors of the multiple news articles I saw about this [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] for parroting Amazon's "Free Apps" PR without doing enough research to find out about the ads Amazon is using to pay for the deal. [1] http://techcrunch.com/2015/08/26/amazon-underground-is-an-android-app-store-with-only-actually-free-apps/ http://techcrunch.com/2015/08/26/amazon-underground-is-an-an... [2] http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/08/amazons-new-games-and-apps-store-free-for-users-12%C2%A2-an-hour-for-devs/ http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/08/amazons-new-games-and-... [3] http://www.engadget.com/2015/08/26/amazon-underground-free-apps/ http://www.engadget.com/2015/08/26/amazon-underground-free-a... [4] http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2490149,00.asp http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2490149,00.asp [5] http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/26/9210071/amazon-underground-free-apps http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/26/9210071/amazon-underground...
  - sigmar 11y ago
    Wow. Those links are pretty damning. Ars mentioned there are ads in the Underground app itself, but didn't mention anything about ads being added to apps. Techcrunch only mentions ads in explaining how previous app revenue models used banner ads. The Verge doesn't mention ads at all. Embarrassing.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ohazi 11y ago
No, the real reason Amazon is doing this is that they want to get the Amazon App Store onto Google and carrier branded Android phones. It's a fight for survival and relevance against Google Play.
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  Is amazon really in a fight to the death with Google play? Can I buy cat food there?
  - hosh 11y ago
    It's less Google Play and more breaking the control Google has over the Android platform, despite Android being open-source and spread out across a number of manufacturers. Google Play is a critical piece of that control. The ads look like a way to defray that cost. I wonder what Samsung will try to do. Something similar or something from out of their own playbook?
    - tdmule 11y ago
      Partner with Amazon? I know when I got a Galaxy S4 the OEM Android included the Amazon App and Google Play stores. While they may do something different in Korea, it seems like a reasonable move in markets where Amazon has traction.
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      Does Amazon actually provide compelling apps on their store? The comments here and this new advertising platform would suggest otherwise.
      - jon-wood 11y ago
        Amazon's app store is a cesspit, full of either very similarly named Apps to ones on the play store, but that do something different, or people just straight up stealing other people's Apps and selling them themselves.
- 11y ago

anindyabd 11y ago

To be fair, Amazon didn't claim there wouldn't be any ads: https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1003016361&ref_=mas_surl_undrgrnd https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1003016... The promise is that there will be no payments for the app or for in-app purchases. Also, I've spent some time playing Angry Birds through Underground, and the ads seem much more unobtrusive compared to getting the "freemium" app through Google Play. I guess the philosophy is similar to the "Special Offers" on the Kindle e-book readers.

sigmar 11y ago
I wasn't attacking them for claiming there weren't ads, sorry if it read that way. It's just that I read that entire page posted here, then went to my email and read the email they sent to developers, and I still didn't understand how or why they were doing this. I feel like they should have mentioned the word "ads" somewhere to explain how this would be paid for, rather than saying "actually free" over and over.
aiiane 11y ago
Still, it's kind of underhanded to emphasize the "it's like the premium apps, but free!" as if it's some revolutionary new model... when in reality it's just the typical ad-supported version of an app that customers are familiar with. (The model may be new for developers, but the promotional page is entirely aimed at customers.)

icefox 11y ago

> Interesting. So amazon deals with putting in the ads and the app dev gets paid for every minute the app is used. Seems like an interesting idea, probably useful for games that are very engaging (read: time drain) Except if you can buy the virtual currency + goods without any real consequences you will be able to quickly explore everything grinding games have to offer.

imglorp 11y ago

Is that it, just ads, or is the app also keeping an eye on the user?

jerf 11y ago

So, how much can I pay Amazon to make the ads go away?

LanceH 11y ago
After you find a game you like enough to pay for, you could always buy it directly.