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Having morals also means speaking out about things when it is your concern. 37 Million (of course potentially non-unique) accounts on a website advertised with

Having morals also means speaking out about things when it is your concern. 37 Million (of course potentially non-unique) accounts on a website advertised with the express intent of cheating on your spouse with nobody knowing is fucked up. It's a sleazy website run by sleazy people with sleazy business practices, used by people who are trying to do something which their spouse VERY LIKELY disagrees with. Of course there are portions of the AM leak which are bad, like the gay men in Saudi Arabia, but pretending that this is the norm and not the exception is feeding a delusion. Just because a small portion of the website does not follow the same perogative does not mean that we should derail the discussion from the main issue. An epidemic of cheating over the internet is a concern for people who intend to get married. Estabilshing strong social taboos here is not some awful thing.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
Raw numbers aren't of much use here. You need to also gauge intent and opportunity, which is much harder, and at least in the case of opportunity, there was virtually none. You can't do that, so just stay the hell out. "An epidemic of cheating over the internet". My God, do you think adultery was invented recently? This is a classic fallacy of blaming the mere institutions as opposed to the root cause.
- nostrebored 11y ago
  The intent when you register on a website designed for cheating on your spouse seems pretty clear to me. If you found your spouse registering for AM would you assume that it was just to see if they had a sleek UI? Hook-up culture has always existed as well, but let's not pretend that Tinder hasn't changed the pace/availability of hooking up. In the same light, let's not pretend that the anonymity of the internet hasn't facilitated people comitting adultery.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    In the same light, let's not pretend that the anonymity of the internet hasn't facilitated people comitting adultery. In the same light, let's not pretend that the anonymity of the Internet hasn't facilitated people engaging in terrorist activity and drug trade. When do we build the firewall, captain?
    - nostrebored 11y ago
      So you're going to let my intent argument stand? We build the firewall around prosocial behavior. I think that if the names of all of the coke dealers selling their wares through TSR came out today I would not be upset either, because it's a scummy, exploitative industry. If you're breaking a social contract, my expectation of other people upholding their social contracts with you, in that area, are very slim.
      - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
        The whole purpose of a judicial system is that blanket vigilantism based on "social contracts" is ineffective and prone to high margins of error. I understand that you do not share this belief and instead want to mold people around allegedly "prosocial" behavior, even if it's a legal contract outside your jurisdiction as a natural person. We will have to disagree and cut the argument here.
      - task_queue 11y ago
        You wouldn't care if people who are not at all involved are implied to be coke dealers because they had their identity stolen? Public exposure of individuals' private information is irresponsible, period. Vigilantism is against the social contract, upholding it implies you gave up that power to the institutions that have the responsibility to judge and prosecute.
balabaster 11y ago
It exposes what is already human nature. Okay, it was a potential enabler... you have a fair point. But it having a large male populous turns out to be a popular gay hub. The people on this site were going to cheat anyway. I don't disagree with it being run by sleazy people with sleazy business practices. From everything I've read, I'd concur with this statement. An epidemic of cheating over the internet is no more a concern than the "epidemic" of cheating. The internet was just a means to an end... just like party lines, dating services, the bar, the office and everywhere else people of our species comingle without their partners. Cheating is no more an epidemic now than it ever was. People just changed media. Perhaps if it's truly the epidemic you suggest, then instead of that being a concern to people who intend to get married, we as a species need to re-evaluate if monogamy is actually human nature or if it's just wishful thinking impressed upon us by the dogma of our upbringing.
- nostrebored 11y ago
  I find the prospect of people making promises to people that we can assume that they love and being unable to keep those promises to be terrifying. If I believed that we weren't able to control our behavior and we were overrun with animalistic desire, I would kill myself. The same ideology is used to justify violence, rape, etc., and if I did not believe that these problems could be addressed or improved upon, I personally do not think life would be worth living.
  - balabaster 11y ago
    That's your call. People break promises all the time. I find the prospect that you choose to believe peoples promises will uphold over time naive - that's my perspective and equally as valid to me as yours is to you. People do things for many reasons you are not privvy to all the time and while they may seek comfort in the arms of someone outside their relationship, doesn't automatically justify violence and rape. I find this argument to be as laughable as those making arguments that same sex marriage is comparable to marrying animals. If understanding and accepting human nature for what it is makes your life not worth living, then only you can evaluate that. I choose to believe that people are inherently good. I choose to believe that while their interests align with my own, they're likely to make good on that promise. But I equally believe that accepting someone else's promise without question or qualification is naive at best. I cannot expect them to honour that promise when their interests are no longer aligned with mine. Does that make my life not worth living? Of course not. I love people, I enjoy being around them. People are amazing, wonderful and fascinating creatures. ...but to expect that one person uphold a promise they had no hope of truly understanding when they made it, for the entire duration of the remainder of their life... and then holding them accountable for failing to keep it. That's beyond ridiculous, I don't care what religion you are.
s73v3r 11y ago
"Having morals also means speaking out about things when it is your concern. " Nobody on AM was your concern. At all.
task_queue 11y ago
How are 37 million private accounts, having nothing to do with you, your concern at all? You brushed the consequences of this vigilante justice under the rug. Those Saudi Arabians will most likely suffer severe consequences, probably death, for being exposed. The public is not a judge, jury or executioner, no matter how good it makes you feel to play morality police. None of this excuses an irresponsible exposure of private information.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago

Raw numbers aren't of much use here. You need to also gauge intent and opportunity, which is much harder, and at least in the case of opportunity, there was virtually none. You can't do that, so just stay the hell out. "An epidemic of cheating over the internet". My God, do you think adultery was invented recently? This is a classic fallacy of blaming the mere institutions as opposed to the root cause.

nostrebored 11y ago
The intent when you register on a website designed for cheating on your spouse seems pretty clear to me. If you found your spouse registering for AM would you assume that it was just to see if they had a sleek UI? Hook-up culture has always existed as well, but let's not pretend that Tinder hasn't changed the pace/availability of hooking up. In the same light, let's not pretend that the anonymity of the internet hasn't facilitated people comitting adultery.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  In the same light, let's not pretend that the anonymity of the internet hasn't facilitated people comitting adultery. In the same light, let's not pretend that the anonymity of the Internet hasn't facilitated people engaging in terrorist activity and drug trade. When do we build the firewall, captain?
  - nostrebored 11y ago
    So you're going to let my intent argument stand? We build the firewall around prosocial behavior. I think that if the names of all of the coke dealers selling their wares through TSR came out today I would not be upset either, because it's a scummy, exploitative industry. If you're breaking a social contract, my expectation of other people upholding their social contracts with you, in that area, are very slim.
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      The whole purpose of a judicial system is that blanket vigilantism based on "social contracts" is ineffective and prone to high margins of error. I understand that you do not share this belief and instead want to mold people around allegedly "prosocial" behavior, even if it's a legal contract outside your jurisdiction as a natural person. We will have to disagree and cut the argument here.
    - task_queue 11y ago
      You wouldn't care if people who are not at all involved are implied to be coke dealers because they had their identity stolen? Public exposure of individuals' private information is irresponsible, period. Vigilantism is against the social contract, upholding it implies you gave up that power to the institutions that have the responsibility to judge and prosecute.

balabaster 11y ago

It exposes what is already human nature. Okay, it was a potential enabler... you have a fair point. But it having a large male populous turns out to be a popular gay hub. The people on this site were going to cheat anyway. I don't disagree with it being run by sleazy people with sleazy business practices. From everything I've read, I'd concur with this statement. An epidemic of cheating over the internet is no more a concern than the "epidemic" of cheating. The internet was just a means to an end... just like party lines, dating services, the bar, the office and everywhere else people of our species comingle without their partners. Cheating is no more an epidemic now than it ever was. People just changed media. Perhaps if it's truly the epidemic you suggest, then instead of that being a concern to people who intend to get married, we as a species need to re-evaluate if monogamy is actually human nature or if it's just wishful thinking impressed upon us by the dogma of our upbringing.

nostrebored 11y ago
I find the prospect of people making promises to people that we can assume that they love and being unable to keep those promises to be terrifying. If I believed that we weren't able to control our behavior and we were overrun with animalistic desire, I would kill myself. The same ideology is used to justify violence, rape, etc., and if I did not believe that these problems could be addressed or improved upon, I personally do not think life would be worth living.
- balabaster 11y ago
  That's your call. People break promises all the time. I find the prospect that you choose to believe peoples promises will uphold over time naive - that's my perspective and equally as valid to me as yours is to you. People do things for many reasons you are not privvy to all the time and while they may seek comfort in the arms of someone outside their relationship, doesn't automatically justify violence and rape. I find this argument to be as laughable as those making arguments that same sex marriage is comparable to marrying animals. If understanding and accepting human nature for what it is makes your life not worth living, then only you can evaluate that. I choose to believe that people are inherently good. I choose to believe that while their interests align with my own, they're likely to make good on that promise. But I equally believe that accepting someone else's promise without question or qualification is naive at best. I cannot expect them to honour that promise when their interests are no longer aligned with mine. Does that make my life not worth living? Of course not. I love people, I enjoy being around them. People are amazing, wonderful and fascinating creatures. ...but to expect that one person uphold a promise they had no hope of truly understanding when they made it, for the entire duration of the remainder of their life... and then holding them accountable for failing to keep it. That's beyond ridiculous, I don't care what religion you are.

s73v3r 11y ago

"Having morals also means speaking out about things when it is your concern. " Nobody on AM was your concern. At all.

task_queue 11y ago

How are 37 million private accounts, having nothing to do with you, your concern at all? You brushed the consequences of this vigilante justice under the rug. Those Saudi Arabians will most likely suffer severe consequences, probably death, for being exposed. The public is not a judge, jury or executioner, no matter how good it makes you feel to play morality police. None of this excuses an irresponsible exposure of private information.