5 ms·

I'm not 100% sure the death of Flash is a good thing. Maybe the death of "flash the buggy proprietary plugin" is good but there are tens of thousands if not hun

I'm not 100% sure the death of Flash is a good thing. Maybe the death of "flash the buggy proprietary plugin" is good but there are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of devs that are productive with flash and not likely to be as productive in HTML5. It would be nice if somehow Flash could export to HTML5 directly. That said, Flash still has features that are missing from HTML5. 1. One file distribution. AFAICT HTML5 has no real ability to do this 2. Easy streaming I suppose you can break a HTML5 app into multiple files but with flash there's one file and it can start running the content of that file when only some small percentage of it has downloaded. And, it just magically happens or rather it's super easy to setup. Reproducing that in HTML5 is a huge chore. 3. Not running when not visible HTML5 has no way to stop an animation when offscreen. If you have a requestAnimationFrame Canvas or WebGL or element based animation and your element is scrolled off the screen HTML5 will still execute your code. Flash will not. So, blogs aggregating flash content work. Blogs aggregating canvas/webgl content don't even exist or unlike flash each item needs to be on its own page. There are some workaround but they require you to modify all content where as Flash you can use 3rd party content and still get this. 4. Can copy to clipboard Yes I know that's considered "unsafe" and yet nearly every website that needs that feature uses flash for it. Google Docs and GMail both use it even though Google's Chrome team claims they won't put the feature in HTML5 because it's unsafe. They need to make up their minds. I'm sure people who are more familiar with flash can name more features they wish would make it to HTML5. And on top of that I can easily block flash. I can't block HTML5 so much :P

PretzelFisch 11y ago
"on top of that I can easily block flash. I can't block HTML5 so much" Disabling javascript is probably equivalent?
- hacker_9 11y ago
  Not really. Thesedays disabling javascript would likely render any webpage unusable.
  - distances 11y ago
    I'm using RequestPolicy [0] for selectively disabling JavaScript based on domains. It's usually a bit of clicking to allow crucial sources when I visit a new site, but I think it pays back with the reduction in distracting UI elements and loading times. [0] https://requestpolicycontinued.github.io https://requestpolicycontinued.github.io
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      Been using Noscript for a number of years, and it seems to do pretty much the same as Requestpolicy.
      - marcosdumay 11y ago
        Requestpolicy is much more fine grained than NoScript, what is both a blessing and a curse.
  - wtbob 11y ago
    > Thesedays disabling javascript would likely render any webpage unusable. Not any web page, and not completely unusable, but it's getting worse every single day. It makes me sick to see the open web perverted so badly. Web pages should be documents to be read, not programs to execute!
    - PretzelFisch 11y ago
      I strongly agree with this. But until we put forth an application alternative, we will be doomed to suffer through the death of document centric html.
    - ufmace 11y ago
      > Web pages should be documents to be read, not programs to execute Says who? Seriously. Some things are better off as documents, sure, but having a secure and efficient way to run apps over the web has enabled a huge number of awesome things. And exactly what is so non-open about it? HTML5, JS interpreters, and almost all of the major browser engines are all open-source.
fenomas 11y ago
I've always felt that Flash's influence on paving the way for the modern web gets overlooked. Against the backdrop of a web that was painfully fractured and deficient of features, Flash basically innovated the hell out of all the worst parts, and then slowly but surely browsers and web standards adopted the best innovations (and ignored a few missteps). People talk about Flash dying or being killed, but I think of it more as having served its purpose, in a good way - if the open standards are no longer deficient, then there's no need for proprietary solutions that work around them. So in that vein, I think the features you've listed are basically the last few good bits that haven't been adopted (or covered by frameworks) yet. But I suspect 1-3 are kind of the same problem - that HTML's never had a good container format.
francisl 11y ago
Flash developer can use haxe (http://haxe.org/ http://haxe.org/) More gear towards games though.
dredmorbius 11y ago
On HTML5 blocking: FILE BUGS ON BROWSERS. Autoplay, animation, inconsistent video controls, etc. Existing browser devs have been quite resistant to these suggestions. Another approach: blocking advertising and annoyances hosts via /etc/hosts or dnsmasq. Latter will block entire domains. It also reads /etc/hosts.
ludamad 11y ago
http://mozilla.github.io/shumway/ http://mozilla.github.io/shumway/ is something that is sorely needed, I feel
TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
All of these can be done with HTML and JS, and (bar maybe clipboard) have worked for years: > 1. One file distribution. > AFAICT HTML5 has no real ability to do this We've had this since the 90s, in the form of MIME HTML (.mhtml) files. We also have data: URIs, another approach, which has better browser support. Nobody ever bothers with this stuff, but it is there and very easy to do. You can literally just open an HTML file in IE, press Ctrl+S and save an MHTML one with all the assets bundled into one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_URI_scheme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_URI_scheme > 2. Easy streaming This can actually be done in HTML as well, if you execute your JS when the DOM's ready, rather than when the page has loaded. jQuery users have done a very weak form of this for years. Again, though, nobody seems to bother. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Events/DOMContentLoaded https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Events/DOMConte... > 3. Not running when not visible > HTML5 has no way to stop an animation when offscreen. HTML5's had the ability to detect if the window is visible or active for a long time now, but nobody uses it. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/User_experience/Using_the_Page_Visibility_API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/User_expe... > 4. Can copy to clipboard Internet Explorer had this years ago, and you can do this with HTML5 too, it's now standard. Strangely, nobody uses it. http://stackoverflow.com/a/30810322/736162 http://stackoverflow.com/a/30810322/736162 > And on top of that I can easily block flash. I can't block HTML5 so much :P NoScript! https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/noscript/?src=search https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/noscript/?src...
- riffraff 11y ago
  MHTML was _awesome_ when I was still using IE. It worked almost flawlessly (probably also cause sites were simpler) and I never understood why other browsers didn't support it.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    It's been an RFC since at least 18 years ago ([0], preceded by [1]), which makes it all the more odd that some browsers (Firefox particularly) don't support it. There's been an open bug for 16 years :( [2] (and a counterpart for saving for 15: [3]) [0] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2557 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2557 [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2110 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2110 [2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18764 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18764 [3] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40873 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40873
chriswarbo 11y ago
> 1. One file distribution. What's wrong with using data URIs?
userbinator 11y ago
I agree that it's the Adobe implementation which is the main problem here, and that dying is a good thing, but not the goals of Flash nor the SWF format itself. HTML5 and its related standards (CSS, JS, SVG) are a great example of "design by committee" leading to large amounts of gratuitous complexity and inefficiency. It's basically a document markup language which got coerced into a crude approximation of a general-purpose applications language, whereas SWF was designed from the beginning for vector graphics, animations, and interactivity.
anonbanker 11y ago
That's a whole lot of words to say "they took our jobs".

PretzelFisch 11y ago

"on top of that I can easily block flash. I can't block HTML5 so much" Disabling javascript is probably equivalent?

hacker_9 11y ago
Not really. Thesedays disabling javascript would likely render any webpage unusable.
- distances 11y ago
  I'm using RequestPolicy [0] for selectively disabling JavaScript based on domains. It's usually a bit of clicking to allow crucial sources when I visit a new site, but I think it pays back with the reduction in distracting UI elements and loading times. [0] https://requestpolicycontinued.github.io https://requestpolicycontinued.github.io
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    Been using Noscript for a number of years, and it seems to do pretty much the same as Requestpolicy.
    - marcosdumay 11y ago
      Requestpolicy is much more fine grained than NoScript, what is both a blessing and a curse.
- wtbob 11y ago
  > Thesedays disabling javascript would likely render any webpage unusable. Not any web page, and not completely unusable, but it's getting worse every single day. It makes me sick to see the open web perverted so badly. Web pages should be documents to be read, not programs to execute!
  - PretzelFisch 11y ago
    I strongly agree with this. But until we put forth an application alternative, we will be doomed to suffer through the death of document centric html.
  - ufmace 11y ago
    > Web pages should be documents to be read, not programs to execute Says who? Seriously. Some things are better off as documents, sure, but having a secure and efficient way to run apps over the web has enabled a huge number of awesome things. And exactly what is so non-open about it? HTML5, JS interpreters, and almost all of the major browser engines are all open-source.

fenomas 11y ago

I've always felt that Flash's influence on paving the way for the modern web gets overlooked. Against the backdrop of a web that was painfully fractured and deficient of features, Flash basically innovated the hell out of all the worst parts, and then slowly but surely browsers and web standards adopted the best innovations (and ignored a few missteps). People talk about Flash dying or being killed, but I think of it more as having served its purpose, in a good way - if the open standards are no longer deficient, then there's no need for proprietary solutions that work around them. So in that vein, I think the features you've listed are basically the last few good bits that haven't been adopted (or covered by frameworks) yet. But I suspect 1-3 are kind of the same problem - that HTML's never had a good container format.

francisl 11y ago

Flash developer can use haxe (http://haxe.org/ http://haxe.org/) More gear towards games though.

dredmorbius 11y ago

On HTML5 blocking: FILE BUGS ON BROWSERS. Autoplay, animation, inconsistent video controls, etc. Existing browser devs have been quite resistant to these suggestions. Another approach: blocking advertising and annoyances hosts via /etc/hosts or dnsmasq. Latter will block entire domains. It also reads /etc/hosts.

ludamad 11y ago

http://mozilla.github.io/shumway/ http://mozilla.github.io/shumway/ is something that is sorely needed, I feel

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

All of these can be done with HTML and JS, and (bar maybe clipboard) have worked for years: > 1. One file distribution. > AFAICT HTML5 has no real ability to do this We've had this since the 90s, in the form of MIME HTML (.mhtml) files. We also have data: URIs, another approach, which has better browser support. Nobody ever bothers with this stuff, but it is there and very easy to do. You can literally just open an HTML file in IE, press Ctrl+S and save an MHTML one with all the assets bundled into one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_URI_scheme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_URI_scheme > 2. Easy streaming This can actually be done in HTML as well, if you execute your JS when the DOM's ready, rather than when the page has loaded. jQuery users have done a very weak form of this for years. Again, though, nobody seems to bother. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Events/DOMContentLoaded https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Events/DOMConte... > 3. Not running when not visible > HTML5 has no way to stop an animation when offscreen. HTML5's had the ability to detect if the window is visible or active for a long time now, but nobody uses it. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/User_experience/Using_the_Page_Visibility_API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/User_expe... > 4. Can copy to clipboard Internet Explorer had this years ago, and you can do this with HTML5 too, it's now standard. Strangely, nobody uses it. http://stackoverflow.com/a/30810322/736162 http://stackoverflow.com/a/30810322/736162 > And on top of that I can easily block flash. I can't block HTML5 so much :P NoScript! https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/noscript/?src=search https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/noscript/?src...

riffraff 11y ago
MHTML was _awesome_ when I was still using IE. It worked almost flawlessly (probably also cause sites were simpler) and I never understood why other browsers didn't support it.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  It's been an RFC since at least 18 years ago ([0], preceded by [1]), which makes it all the more odd that some browsers (Firefox particularly) don't support it. There's been an open bug for 16 years :( [2] (and a counterpart for saving for 15: [3]) [0] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2557 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2557 [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2110 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2110 [2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18764 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18764 [3] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40873 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40873

chriswarbo 11y ago

> 1. One file distribution. What's wrong with using data URIs?

userbinator 11y ago

I agree that it's the Adobe implementation which is the main problem here, and that dying is a good thing, but not the goals of Flash nor the SWF format itself. HTML5 and its related standards (CSS, JS, SVG) are a great example of "design by committee" leading to large amounts of gratuitous complexity and inefficiency. It's basically a document markup language which got coerced into a crude approximation of a general-purpose applications language, whereas SWF was designed from the beginning for vector graphics, animations, and interactivity.

anonbanker 11y ago

That's a whole lot of words to say "they took our jobs".