6 ms·

Version Control Operating System

38 points by andrewfong 17y ago

andrewfong 17y ago
I'm aware of the peril of submitting my own stuff to HN, but I figured this was the fastest way to get some feedback.
dlsspy 17y ago
Sounds like you're describing plan9?
- wendroid 17y ago
  in case anyone is interested http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/1/yesterday http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/1/yesterday
- jf 17y ago
  I'm totally taken with Fossil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_(file_system) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_(file_system) - which versions the filesystem. Does Plan 9 cover any of the other things he discusses?
joe_the_user 17y ago
Things I'd like rolled into an OS: - version control + mini database in file system. - forward and backward debugging. - HTML rendering windowing system (not a browser but the guts needed for a browser among other things of stuff, something like XUL). - Safe, fast Javascript interpreter. - The usual unix-y networking and such but cleaned up a la perl. - Fast, safe sandbox for low-level stuff
rmaccloy 17y ago
Sounds like a combination of FS-level VC (implemented several times) and GoboLinux or Zero-Install (probably more Zero-Install.)
- sandGorgon 17y ago
  Talking of Gobo and 0install - I am surprised nobody has mentioned Nix (http://nixos.org/ http://nixos.org/). The aspect of Nix which is relevant to "versioned OS" is the package configuration database which can be snapshotted (http://lwn.net/Articles/337677/ http://lwn.net/Articles/337677/ ). In this approach, the static parts of a configuration —software packages, configuration files, control scripts— are built from pure functions, i.e., the results depend solely on the specified inputs of the function and are immutable. As a result, realising a system configuration becomes deterministic and reproducible. Upgrading to a new configuration is mostly atomic and doesn't overwrite anything of the old configuration, thus enabling rollbacks. I recently wanted to install the same configuration as my Ubuntu laptop, on a desktop. The thread to list manually-installed packages in Ubuntu is huge and has no deterministic answer. Perhaps, a manager like Nix could have accorded me this flexibility.
  - gnosis 17y ago
    There are some great comments in that LWN article, and I encourage everyone here to read them. For reference, here are a couple of relevant links to some similar package and configuration managers: vesta: http://www.vestasys.org http://www.vestasys.org store: http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~arnej/store/storedoc.html http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~arnej/store/storedoc.html
swies 17y ago
OpenSolaris does a lot of nifty things in this area. Closest to this is their Image Packaging System: http://hub.opensolaris.org/bin/view/Project+pkg/WebHome http://hub.opensolaris.org/bin/view/Project+pkg/WebHome Check out the links to Zones (sandboxes) and ZFS (filesystem with cloning/snapshots) at the top if you aren't familiar with them too. While most of the heavy lifting for something like this would happen at the operating system level, you also want to rewrite/fix up many apps to be aware of what's going on. One of the big lessons from BaseShield was that these abstractions are very leaky. Things get confusing to users fast when all apps don't necessarily see the same view of the filesystem. If you want to see this sandboxing/contained apps thing done right, look at the iPhone.
cabalamat 17y ago
Are you familiar with GoboLinux? http://www.gobolinux.org/ http://www.gobolinux.org/ It does the self-contained packaging you prefer. So if you install version 1.2.3 of a program Foo, it'll go in /Programs/Foo/1.2.3/ . Yopu can also have multiple versions of the same program, e.g. /Programs/Foo/2.1.0/ as well, if different packages depend on different versions of other packages.
- krakensden 17y ago
  GoboLinux is really quite nifty, but are they still doing that thing where they try and selectively hide the normal linux filesystem structure? I approve of their goals, the method just seemed cracktastic.
  - kqr2 17y ago
    Gobohide is an optional kernel extension which is purely for aesthetic reasons. http://www.gobolinux.org/index.php?page=at_a_glance http://www.gobolinux.org/index.php?page=at_a_glance You may have noticed that the Unix paths did not show up in the system root listing in the very first example. They are actually there, but they are concealed from view using the GoboHide kernel extension. This is for aesthetic purposes only and purely optional, though: GoboLinux does not require modifications in the kernel or any other system components.
blasdel 17y ago
Mac OS X has implemented a lot of clever things in this area for a long time. There's the obvious case of user applications being self-contained bundles, which works because nobody ever links against anything not provided with the system by Apple. The really interesting part is the operating system ships with multiple independent versions of the SDK libraries, and the developer tools ship with several independent sets of headers for them. An application that was built against the 10.4u or 10.5 SDK will run against those libraries even on 10.6.
- wendroid 17y ago
  Like lots of modern features, it appeared in Plan 9 first.
- andrewfong 17y ago
  Another interesting question would be which of the OS design aspects of the iPhone are going to be ported back to desktop OS X.
philwelch 17y ago
A versioning file system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versioning_file_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versioning_file_system) is not a new idea--some old OS's, like ITS and VMS, had them. One of the biggest repeated bones of contention in the old Unix-Haters' Handbook was in fact Unix's lack of versioning.
shykes 17y ago
cloudlets [1] experiments with versioning an entire filesystem, but it's server-centric (disclosure: I'm the author). [1] http://bitbucket.org/dotcloud/cloudlets http://bitbucket.org/dotcloud/cloudlets
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
JamieEi 17y ago
"I like to download things, but I also like the idea of being able to use multiple machines and have everything — my settings, files, and apps all sync up intelligently. Download an MP3 on one computer and listen to it on another. Version control lets you do that." No, synchronization lets you do that. Version control lets you maintain history about the changes to a file or set of files. They are very different things. Live Mesh, for instance, gives a great sync experience that is pretty much exactly what the poster says he wants, but doesn't have history.
- andrewfong 17y ago
  True, but I feel version control is a much needed component when you have syncing. When you multiple versions flying around, you inevitably have a merging accident / older file overriding the newer one somehow. Being able to rewind is then your friend.

38 points by andrewfong 17y ago

andrewfong 17y ago

I'm aware of the peril of submitting my own stuff to HN, but I figured this was the fastest way to get some feedback.

dlsspy 17y ago

Sounds like you're describing plan9?

wendroid 17y ago
in case anyone is interested http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/1/yesterday http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/1/yesterday
jf 17y ago
I'm totally taken with Fossil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_(file_system) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_(file_system) - which versions the filesystem. Does Plan 9 cover any of the other things he discusses?

joe_the_user 17y ago

Things I'd like rolled into an OS: - version control + mini database in file system. - forward and backward debugging. - HTML rendering windowing system (not a browser but the guts needed for a browser among other things of stuff, something like XUL). - Safe, fast Javascript interpreter. - The usual unix-y networking and such but cleaned up a la perl. - Fast, safe sandbox for low-level stuff

rmaccloy 17y ago

Sounds like a combination of FS-level VC (implemented several times) and GoboLinux or Zero-Install (probably more Zero-Install.)

sandGorgon 17y ago
Talking of Gobo and 0install - I am surprised nobody has mentioned Nix (http://nixos.org/ http://nixos.org/). The aspect of Nix which is relevant to "versioned OS" is the package configuration database which can be snapshotted (http://lwn.net/Articles/337677/ http://lwn.net/Articles/337677/ ). In this approach, the static parts of a configuration —software packages, configuration files, control scripts— are built from pure functions, i.e., the results depend solely on the specified inputs of the function and are immutable. As a result, realising a system configuration becomes deterministic and reproducible. Upgrading to a new configuration is mostly atomic and doesn't overwrite anything of the old configuration, thus enabling rollbacks. I recently wanted to install the same configuration as my Ubuntu laptop, on a desktop. The thread to list manually-installed packages in Ubuntu is huge and has no deterministic answer. Perhaps, a manager like Nix could have accorded me this flexibility.
- gnosis 17y ago
  There are some great comments in that LWN article, and I encourage everyone here to read them. For reference, here are a couple of relevant links to some similar package and configuration managers: vesta: http://www.vestasys.org http://www.vestasys.org store: http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~arnej/store/storedoc.html http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~arnej/store/storedoc.html

swies 17y ago

OpenSolaris does a lot of nifty things in this area. Closest to this is their Image Packaging System: http://hub.opensolaris.org/bin/view/Project+pkg/WebHome http://hub.opensolaris.org/bin/view/Project+pkg/WebHome Check out the links to Zones (sandboxes) and ZFS (filesystem with cloning/snapshots) at the top if you aren't familiar with them too. While most of the heavy lifting for something like this would happen at the operating system level, you also want to rewrite/fix up many apps to be aware of what's going on. One of the big lessons from BaseShield was that these abstractions are very leaky. Things get confusing to users fast when all apps don't necessarily see the same view of the filesystem. If you want to see this sandboxing/contained apps thing done right, look at the iPhone.

cabalamat 17y ago

Are you familiar with GoboLinux? http://www.gobolinux.org/ http://www.gobolinux.org/ It does the self-contained packaging you prefer. So if you install version 1.2.3 of a program Foo, it'll go in /Programs/Foo/1.2.3/ . Yopu can also have multiple versions of the same program, e.g. /Programs/Foo/2.1.0/ as well, if different packages depend on different versions of other packages.

krakensden 17y ago
GoboLinux is really quite nifty, but are they still doing that thing where they try and selectively hide the normal linux filesystem structure? I approve of their goals, the method just seemed cracktastic.
- kqr2 17y ago
  Gobohide is an optional kernel extension which is purely for aesthetic reasons. http://www.gobolinux.org/index.php?page=at_a_glance http://www.gobolinux.org/index.php?page=at_a_glance You may have noticed that the Unix paths did not show up in the system root listing in the very first example. They are actually there, but they are concealed from view using the GoboHide kernel extension. This is for aesthetic purposes only and purely optional, though: GoboLinux does not require modifications in the kernel or any other system components.

blasdel 17y ago

Mac OS X has implemented a lot of clever things in this area for a long time. There's the obvious case of user applications being self-contained bundles, which works because nobody ever links against anything not provided with the system by Apple. The really interesting part is the operating system ships with multiple independent versions of the SDK libraries, and the developer tools ship with several independent sets of headers for them. An application that was built against the 10.4u or 10.5 SDK will run against those libraries even on 10.6.

wendroid 17y ago
Like lots of modern features, it appeared in Plan 9 first.
andrewfong 17y ago
Another interesting question would be which of the OS design aspects of the iPhone are going to be ported back to desktop OS X.

philwelch 17y ago

A versioning file system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versioning_file_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versioning_file_system) is not a new idea--some old OS's, like ITS and VMS, had them. One of the biggest repeated bones of contention in the old Unix-Haters' Handbook was in fact Unix's lack of versioning.

shykes 17y ago

cloudlets [1] experiments with versioning an entire filesystem, but it's server-centric (disclosure: I'm the author). [1] http://bitbucket.org/dotcloud/cloudlets http://bitbucket.org/dotcloud/cloudlets

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

JamieEi 17y ago

"I like to download things, but I also like the idea of being able to use multiple machines and have everything — my settings, files, and apps all sync up intelligently. Download an MP3 on one computer and listen to it on another. Version control lets you do that." No, synchronization lets you do that. Version control lets you maintain history about the changes to a file or set of files. They are very different things. Live Mesh, for instance, gives a great sync experience that is pretty much exactly what the poster says he wants, but doesn't have history.

andrewfong 17y ago
True, but I feel version control is a much needed component when you have syncing. When you multiple versions flying around, you inevitably have a merging accident / older file overriding the newer one somehow. Being able to rewind is then your friend.