9 ms·

This seems partially explained by selection bias -- the slackers from "India, China, and Latin America" don't come to America for college at the same rates as A

by zck 17y ago

This seems partially explained by selection bias -- the slackers from "India, China, and Latin America" don't come to America for college at the same rates as American slackers do. However, this doesn't explain the actual statistics she gives.

ighost 17y ago
Yeah, if the validity of your visa hinges on passing all of your classes, you will do what it takes to pass those classes, language barrier or no.
- lmkg 17y ago
  More to the point, the only ones who got the visa in the first place are the ones who already were top performers.
  - nandemo 17y ago
    I agree that foreign students are above the average level of American students, generally speaking. But in this particular case? I had never heard of Babson College, and I'm pretty sure top students in any of the mentioned countries wouldn't choose Babson.
    - yardie 17y ago
      You probably never heard of them because they didn't go to your area to recruit. When I was looking at schools recruiters were coming to the school practically everyday. Some were bundled up in the same day. And you never know why a student chooses a college until you ask. They might be offering something in their major. They may know an alumni who can get them a spot (with the proper grades of course), or they might offer more scholarship money. If you're family income is $200 a month are you really going to turn down a free education?
lurkinggrue 17y ago
Would be nice if we could get a slacker statistic like percentage of slackers by country.
- mreid 17y ago
  Yeah. I wish someone else would do that.
  - Ixiaus 17y ago
    I don't usually upvote comments like these on HackerNews, but that genuinely made me laugh-out-loud.
randliu 17y ago
Also keep in mind that the author teaches at Babson, which is a private college devoted entirely to business administration students.
- telemachos 17y ago
  I'm sorry, but I don't understand how I should "keep this in mind." She teaches at a college which focuses on business. How does this explain the difference she sees between her American students and her international students? (I'm not trying to be difficult - though I'm told it comes natural to me. I just don't see your point.)
  - squidbot 17y ago
    He might be intoning the stereotype (which may or may not be true) that there are more "slacker" students joining business programs, whereas engineering students tend to be more focused and disciplined. Therefore, you might see a very different article from an instructor at MIT.
    - telemachos 17y ago
      Right, but that difference (if it were real, which I doubt) should cut across the two groups of students (American and non-American). Or at least, we have no reason to think that "business students are lazier than other students" tracks or causes the difference between Americans and others that the author focuses on.
      - randliu 17y ago
        I'm just saying that all the author is observing is that the students with the most to lose, work the hardest. Foreign students obviously have a lot to lose since they're coming overseas for an education. On the other hand, the American students she interacts with are likely wealthy and don't necessarily need stellar grades to move on to a professional degree program e.g. medical school.
  - 17y ago
potatolicious 17y ago
I grew up in Taiwan, so I think I can shed some light on this. IMHO "the average" Taiwanese student will work harder than the average American student, but not by a supremely gross margin as this article would imply. The bottom-barrel students never end up in American colleges, after all. The chief difference is cultural - in Asia intellectualism is celebrated and demanded. Parents don't push their kids to football, they push them to academic achievement. Not being able to make it into college isn't worn as a badge of honor, it's downright shameful. I have personally known people who've shipped their kids away from home to some backwater third-rate academy, just so they can hide the fact that the kid couldn't get into any school locally. Beyond parental pressure, peer pressure also largely pushes people to academic achievement. Having high marks won't get you beat up - in fact it commands respect (within reason). Having poor marks likewise isn't cool like it is here, but is similarly embarrassing. Keep in mind though, that this has some consequences that academics who opine about the lack of American work ethic consistently fail to mention: - Appreciation and participation in the arts, both as a college study, and as extracurriculars, is ridiculously low. People who study the humanities are looked down upon, I even know one guy who got disowned for it. - Social integration takes a backseat, often to disastrous results later. In Taiwan is it not irregular for a middle school child (age 12 or so) to be at some form of school for 14 hours a day. There's literally only spare time to eat and sleep (and sometimes not even). Socialization is minimal, and add this onto the culture of living with your parents well into your 20s, it produces some seriously socially inept people. Japan is already dealing with these consequences - look up "hikkikomori" if you're interested.
- carbocation 17y ago
  The key here is that the average foreign student who came to America for college has already demonstrated a tremendous commitment to education. The average American student at any college, particularly one that is not world-renowned, does not harbor this extraordinary signal. Expectations with regards to work ethic should be calibrated accordingly.
- chancho 17y ago
  Thanks for sharing your account of student life in Taiwan. It's always nice to hear firsthand about life in other cultures so that we don't hang onto our misconceptions. On that note, let me suggest that your caricature of American student life is a little cartoonish. Yeah it's like that in a lot of schools, but if your son or daughter goes to one of those schools then you live in a shitty neighborhood and should move. You're probably right about the means, but the variance is much higher in the US and its very possible to find an academic environment where a student can excel without fear of getting beat up. (Also, the bit about not making it into college being worn as a "badge of honor" is just silly. Why would they even apply?) FWIW I went to public school in Northern California (the central valley even) and I definitely got positive feedback from my peers for doing well in school, because my peers also took advanced classes. Apart from schools with gang problems, I would characterize it like this: In the US it's your choice whether or not you want to succeed academically. Your peers generally don't care because there are a myriad of other reasons to like or dislike you (looks, sense of humor, clique membership, etc.) So yeah there is not the social pressure to succeed, but for the most part there is no negative pressure preventing success (again, except in very troubled schools.)
robak 17y ago
If someone's really good they tend to stay at home and not emmigrate to the US. Students who are good but not excellent may emmigrate. The same is true with jobs. Countries usually export their poor and dumb.

by zck 17y ago

ighost 17y ago

Yeah, if the validity of your visa hinges on passing all of your classes, you will do what it takes to pass those classes, language barrier or no.

lmkg 17y ago
More to the point, the only ones who got the visa in the first place are the ones who already were top performers.
- nandemo 17y ago
  I agree that foreign students are above the average level of American students, generally speaking. But in this particular case? I had never heard of Babson College, and I'm pretty sure top students in any of the mentioned countries wouldn't choose Babson.
  - yardie 17y ago
    You probably never heard of them because they didn't go to your area to recruit. When I was looking at schools recruiters were coming to the school practically everyday. Some were bundled up in the same day. And you never know why a student chooses a college until you ask. They might be offering something in their major. They may know an alumni who can get them a spot (with the proper grades of course), or they might offer more scholarship money. If you're family income is $200 a month are you really going to turn down a free education?

lurkinggrue 17y ago

Would be nice if we could get a slacker statistic like percentage of slackers by country.

mreid 17y ago
Yeah. I wish someone else would do that.
- Ixiaus 17y ago
  I don't usually upvote comments like these on HackerNews, but that genuinely made me laugh-out-loud.

randliu 17y ago

Also keep in mind that the author teaches at Babson, which is a private college devoted entirely to business administration students.

telemachos 17y ago
I'm sorry, but I don't understand how I should "keep this in mind." She teaches at a college which focuses on business. How does this explain the difference she sees between her American students and her international students? (I'm not trying to be difficult - though I'm told it comes natural to me. I just don't see your point.)
- squidbot 17y ago
  He might be intoning the stereotype (which may or may not be true) that there are more "slacker" students joining business programs, whereas engineering students tend to be more focused and disciplined. Therefore, you might see a very different article from an instructor at MIT.
  - telemachos 17y ago
    Right, but that difference (if it were real, which I doubt) should cut across the two groups of students (American and non-American). Or at least, we have no reason to think that "business students are lazier than other students" tracks or causes the difference between Americans and others that the author focuses on.
    - randliu 17y ago
      I'm just saying that all the author is observing is that the students with the most to lose, work the hardest. Foreign students obviously have a lot to lose since they're coming overseas for an education. On the other hand, the American students she interacts with are likely wealthy and don't necessarily need stellar grades to move on to a professional degree program e.g. medical school.
- 17y ago

potatolicious 17y ago

I grew up in Taiwan, so I think I can shed some light on this. IMHO "the average" Taiwanese student will work harder than the average American student, but not by a supremely gross margin as this article would imply. The bottom-barrel students never end up in American colleges, after all. The chief difference is cultural - in Asia intellectualism is celebrated and demanded. Parents don't push their kids to football, they push them to academic achievement. Not being able to make it into college isn't worn as a badge of honor, it's downright shameful. I have personally known people who've shipped their kids away from home to some backwater third-rate academy, just so they can hide the fact that the kid couldn't get into any school locally. Beyond parental pressure, peer pressure also largely pushes people to academic achievement. Having high marks won't get you beat up - in fact it commands respect (within reason). Having poor marks likewise isn't cool like it is here, but is similarly embarrassing. Keep in mind though, that this has some consequences that academics who opine about the lack of American work ethic consistently fail to mention: - Appreciation and participation in the arts, both as a college study, and as extracurriculars, is ridiculously low. People who study the humanities are looked down upon, I even know one guy who got disowned for it. - Social integration takes a backseat, often to disastrous results later. In Taiwan is it not irregular for a middle school child (age 12 or so) to be at some form of school for 14 hours a day. There's literally only spare time to eat and sleep (and sometimes not even). Socialization is minimal, and add this onto the culture of living with your parents well into your 20s, it produces some seriously socially inept people. Japan is already dealing with these consequences - look up "hikkikomori" if you're interested.

carbocation 17y ago
The key here is that the average foreign student who came to America for college has already demonstrated a tremendous commitment to education. The average American student at any college, particularly one that is not world-renowned, does not harbor this extraordinary signal. Expectations with regards to work ethic should be calibrated accordingly.
chancho 17y ago
Thanks for sharing your account of student life in Taiwan. It's always nice to hear firsthand about life in other cultures so that we don't hang onto our misconceptions. On that note, let me suggest that your caricature of American student life is a little cartoonish. Yeah it's like that in a lot of schools, but if your son or daughter goes to one of those schools then you live in a shitty neighborhood and should move. You're probably right about the means, but the variance is much higher in the US and its very possible to find an academic environment where a student can excel without fear of getting beat up. (Also, the bit about not making it into college being worn as a "badge of honor" is just silly. Why would they even apply?) FWIW I went to public school in Northern California (the central valley even) and I definitely got positive feedback from my peers for doing well in school, because my peers also took advanced classes. Apart from schools with gang problems, I would characterize it like this: In the US it's your choice whether or not you want to succeed academically. Your peers generally don't care because there are a myriad of other reasons to like or dislike you (looks, sense of humor, clique membership, etc.) So yeah there is not the social pressure to succeed, but for the most part there is no negative pressure preventing success (again, except in very troubled schools.)

robak 17y ago

If someone's really good they tend to stay at home and not emmigrate to the US. Students who are good but not excellent may emmigrate. The same is true with jobs. Countries usually export their poor and dumb.