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A communist nation trying to reap benefits of capitalism.

by sidcool 11y ago

Hytosys 11y ago
Because of their embracing of the free market, it's often accepted that China is not a communist nation (despite being led by a communist party). Actually, this situation is pretty much just capitalism at work. It really has nothing to do with communism; every free market is susceptible to this sort of failure.
- le_clochard 11y ago
  It's anything but "capitalism at work" if "capitalism" has anything to with "free markets". The Chinese Government has been graying out, if not altogether fudging, their economic indicators and propping up domestic investors. Now it has moved to outright rigging of the market through selective bans and directives (no short selling, no selling if you hold >5%, no trading at all on certain stocks, and so on). This current rout is simply a continuation of the previous one in July when similar curbs were placed to halt the plunge. Once again, even if their tactics work they'll only help bring about yet another plunge. All in all, the western demand is dying out since most countries are trying to in-source materials and goods (instead of importing from China) and domestic asset bubble has nowhere to pop and the lies invested in that bubble have nowhere to hide.
  - bottled_poe 11y ago
    > The Chinese Government has been graying out, if not altogether fudging, their economic indicators and propping up domestic investors. Oh, is that specific to China?
- sidcool 11y ago
  That was not my point. I am being critical of China for staunchly supporting Communism (and hence to some extent being anti-capitalism and anti-democracy) and at the same time reaping benefits from democracies and capitalist states. I guess HN didn't like my earlier comment, but I do believe that. China has several times castigated India (where I belong) for being a shoddy nation of scared people due to its democracy. I find it a double standard.
  - Hytosys 11y ago
    Ah, I understand now. Thank you for expanding — I agree with your criticism.
_delirium 11y ago
It would be hard to spend even a day in Shanghai and believe that the system you're observing is "communism", even under the notoriously wide range of meanings people have assigned that term. Something like "state capitalism" is a decent description I think.
- pavlov 11y ago
  Although the rhetoric is completely different, today's China could be seen as a state that embodies many of the goals Mussolini had for Italy.
- mahranch 11y ago
  I think it's obvious he's talking about China as a country that has a capitalistic economic infrastructure with a communist social ideology & political structure.
  - _delirium 11y ago
    Isn't the core part of communist social ideology that the government should constitute the political rule of the proletariat? I'm having trouble finding aspects of China's social policy that looks particularly communist. Their policy in the social realm is something like: try to minimize social upheavals, and keep huge and growing inequality from causing open rebellions. When useful, distract the population with nationalist red meat. All that seems like pretty normal fare for an authoritarian capitalist country.
_pmf_ 11y ago
> A communist nation trying to reap benefits of capitalism Thank god that US companies will never betray their nation's core values by shelling out to non-free countries in order to save production costs and circumvent labor laws.
- icebraining 11y ago
  Knee-jerk reaction much? The parent poster is not even from the US, how exactly is that relevant?
  - happyscrappy 11y ago
    For some hatred of the US is so core to their belief system that they end up very confused and defending communism.
- sidcool 11y ago
  As mentioned before, that's not the direction of my argument. I have explained more in my comment above
branchless 11y ago
Yes they should follow the US lead and bail out all their banks!
- mahranch 11y ago
  Actually, China goes way beyond that. Where the U.S tries to nudge things one way or the other indirectly (by changing interest rates and the like), China has total control over their economic & monetary system (including the banks). And they exert that control almost daily. It's one of the reasons why the Chinese Yuan will replace the dollar as the world's reserve currency.
  - branchless 11y ago
    I think the US and the UK interfere plenty. At least China isn't pretending they are against central control whilst pumping out "free market" rhetoric.
    - happyscrappy 11y ago
      The US let Lehman fail which was about all they could stomach.
- adventured 11y ago
  China has vaporized trillions already trying to bail out their banks, which are extremely over-leveraged on debt. China's entire banking system is under high duress right now due to the 'shadow banking' debt mess.

A communist nation trying to reap benefits of capitalism.

by sidcool 11y ago

A communist nation trying to reap benefits of capitalism.

Because of their embracing of the free market, it's often accepted that China is not a communist nation (despite being led by a communist party). Actually, this situation is pretty much just capitalism at work. It really has nothing to do with communism; every free market is susceptible to this sort of failure.

le_clochard 11y ago
It's anything but "capitalism at work" if "capitalism" has anything to with "free markets". The Chinese Government has been graying out, if not altogether fudging, their economic indicators and propping up domestic investors. Now it has moved to outright rigging of the market through selective bans and directives (no short selling, no selling if you hold >5%, no trading at all on certain stocks, and so on). This current rout is simply a continuation of the previous one in July when similar curbs were placed to halt the plunge. Once again, even if their tactics work they'll only help bring about yet another plunge. All in all, the western demand is dying out since most countries are trying to in-source materials and goods (instead of importing from China) and domestic asset bubble has nowhere to pop and the lies invested in that bubble have nowhere to hide.
- bottled_poe 11y ago
  > The Chinese Government has been graying out, if not altogether fudging, their economic indicators and propping up domestic investors. Oh, is that specific to China?
sidcool 11y ago
That was not my point. I am being critical of China for staunchly supporting Communism (and hence to some extent being anti-capitalism and anti-democracy) and at the same time reaping benefits from democracies and capitalist states. I guess HN didn't like my earlier comment, but I do believe that. China has several times castigated India (where I belong) for being a shoddy nation of scared people due to its democracy. I find it a double standard.
- Hytosys 11y ago
  Ah, I understand now. Thank you for expanding — I agree with your criticism.

_delirium 11y ago

It would be hard to spend even a day in Shanghai and believe that the system you're observing is "communism", even under the notoriously wide range of meanings people have assigned that term. Something like "state capitalism" is a decent description I think.

pavlov 11y ago
Although the rhetoric is completely different, today's China could be seen as a state that embodies many of the goals Mussolini had for Italy.
mahranch 11y ago
I think it's obvious he's talking about China as a country that has a capitalistic economic infrastructure with a communist social ideology & political structure.
- _delirium 11y ago
  Isn't the core part of communist social ideology that the government should constitute the political rule of the proletariat? I'm having trouble finding aspects of China's social policy that looks particularly communist. Their policy in the social realm is something like: try to minimize social upheavals, and keep huge and growing inequality from causing open rebellions. When useful, distract the population with nationalist red meat. All that seems like pretty normal fare for an authoritarian capitalist country.

_pmf_ 11y ago

> A communist nation trying to reap benefits of capitalism Thank god that US companies will never betray their nation's core values by shelling out to non-free countries in order to save production costs and circumvent labor laws.

icebraining 11y ago
Knee-jerk reaction much? The parent poster is not even from the US, how exactly is that relevant?
- happyscrappy 11y ago
  For some hatred of the US is so core to their belief system that they end up very confused and defending communism.
sidcool 11y ago
As mentioned before, that's not the direction of my argument. I have explained more in my comment above

branchless 11y ago

Yes they should follow the US lead and bail out all their banks!

mahranch 11y ago
Actually, China goes way beyond that. Where the U.S tries to nudge things one way or the other indirectly (by changing interest rates and the like), China has total control over their economic & monetary system (including the banks). And they exert that control almost daily. It's one of the reasons why the Chinese Yuan will replace the dollar as the world's reserve currency.
- branchless 11y ago
  I think the US and the UK interfere plenty. At least China isn't pretending they are against central control whilst pumping out "free market" rhetoric.
  - happyscrappy 11y ago
    The US let Lehman fail which was about all they could stomach.
adventured 11y ago
China has vaporized trillions already trying to bail out their banks, which are extremely over-leveraged on debt. China's entire banking system is under high duress right now due to the 'shadow banking' debt mess.