6 ms·

Russian parliament asks to prohibit Windows 10 use in state organizations

91 points by ommunist 11y ago

mark_l_watson 11y ago
Probably a smart thing to do. For security reasons, it seems like country's using secure open source software that they can audit makes a lot of sense. I like Microsoft and Apple but who knows what pressure might be applied to them to back doors computers shipped to specific countries.
- prodmerc 11y ago
  Bet you wouldn't be downvoted if it was any other country :-). I don't like the Russian government, but they have a point - Windows 10 borders on 'insane' when it comes to the user data it shares "anonymously". Plus it helps the open source communities... Then again, I don't trust Android and Google Docs apps that want access to my files, information, contacts, microphone, and more...
  - zkhalique 11y ago
    We install a keylogger and store your passwords... anonymously! To help you. 1Password? LastPass? Nah we don't know anything about the state of the art.
  - mark_l_watson 11y ago
    I use an Android Note 4, but I don't install many apps. I use a web browser instead for Facebook, Twitter, and many other sites instead of installing apps. I do this because of the permissions many apps require, even though they don't need some permissions to support their functionality.
    - prodmerc 11y ago
      I'm also surprised at how many apps need to run in the background. Notepads, music players, file explorers, an expense manager - why would they need to run all the time if I don't even use them and haven't set up any syncing. Not to mention that Google Play Services is draining my battery like crazy by using GPS and keeping the CPU awake for way too long...
- _mgr 11y ago
  See "Microsoft Government Security Program".
  - scholia 11y ago
    Presumably the point being that the Russian government (like many others) has access to Windows source code. Well, we know they have XP and Windows 7. I don't know about Windows 10, but that seems less likely at this stage.
    - nobullet 11y ago
      Don't overestimate them. I don't believe MS or US government would give access to source code to anybody with "alternative" world insight. It's like to give access to source code to N. Korea.
      - ommunist 11y ago
        Well, for Win 7 MS had a "special co-operation agreement" with the modern Russian analog of the KGB agency, and disclosed Win 7 OS source code in full. There also was co-operation around Win 8 http://www.gazeta.ru/business/2011/12/01/3854510.shtml http://www.gazeta.ru/business/2011/12/01/3854510.shtml, but not around Skype sources.
      - scholia 11y ago
        Not sure what your point is. Also, not sure why my factual comment has been downvoted. (Is this reddit?) However, there is no shortage of info for anyone who knows how to use Google. To quote Computer Weekly: An agreement signed in 2002 gave Russia access to the source code for Windows XP, 2000 and Server 2000. Under the latest agreement, Russia will gain access to the source code for Windows 7, Server 2008 R2, SQL Server and Office 2010. http://www.computerweekly.com/news/1280093257/Microsoft-shares-source-code-with-Russian-government http://www.computerweekly.com/news/1280093257/Microsoft-shar... It's part of Microsoft's Shared Source Initiative http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/default.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/default.aspx All governmental requests (whether from local, state, provincial, or national governments or agencies) for access to Microsoft product source code must be directed to the Government Security Program Team. They can be contacted at gspteam@microsoft.com http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/government-security-program.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/government-secur...
ZenoArrow 11y ago
I wonder if they'll continue supporting ReactOS. Would be good to see increased resources to support its growth. https://www.reactos.org/node/946 https://www.reactos.org/node/946 Looks like jobs are available, so if any C/C++ coders wanted to be paid to work on an open-source Windows-compatible OS, the opportunities exist... https://www.reactos.org/node/785 https://www.reactos.org/node/785
- dingdingdang 11y ago
  I don't have the C skills necessary but I would love to see ReactOS reach mature (-enough) state for work use soon: the new, privacy invading, direction that MS are taking their OS in with Win10 is unacceptable to me and yet my productivity on Windows in general is so much higher than Linux/OSX (probably just habit to be honest, I'll soon enough find out unless MS comes out with different approach to privacy defaults)
  - ZenoArrow 11y ago
    I'm in the same boat as you. I definitely won't be switching to Windows 10 with the privacy settings as they are, but I prefer working on Windows over Linux, mainly because I'm more confident that it won't break in some way (I've not had the best of luck with Linux, though I've seen it get progressively better, and I'm glad about the emerging work on Wayland/Mir, I just wish the audio stack had an overhaul too). Fingers crossed ReactOS will be stable by the time Windows 7 is no longer supported, either that and bite the bullet and switch to Linux/BSD.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - raptorjesus 11y ago
      I've been using both Unix and NT since about 1996. I agree with you entirely. The killer for me is a weird combination of Stockholm syndrome and a seemingly drug-like addiction to Windows that I just can't shift. One minute I'll be swearing at the 15th problem of the day that occured on Windows and then spend all Saturday installing a Linux distribution and killing off my Windows Phone and Live accounts. By Sunday it's got Windows back on it and I'm at it like a raving crack addict again. But I know it's hurting me. I know Linux well and am responsible for a fair chunk of Linux kit but I always end up with it on Windows again. Last time: unity won't show file copy dialogs suddenly, duplicity backup won't work due to a bug in Ubuntu that has been open for over a year, my FortiClient VPN drops every 5 minutes, I can't find a RDP client (so I can still connect to my day job) that works properly. Argh just kills me this. I want to do something else for a living now.
gpvos 11y ago
Maybe this will be the year of Linux on the desktop.
- k__ 11y ago
  Hopefully. But it seems they'd rather push ReactOS.
  - superskierpat 11y ago
    Linux user here, but I'm still pretty glad to see an open source version of windows being supported, even if it the russian government.
    - k__ 11y ago
      Yes. AFAIK ReactOS works together with Wine, so it could probably improve the integration of Windows apps in Linux.
farresito 11y ago
Doesn't surprise me, honestly. The USA has gotten a fairly bad reputation the past two years after Snowden revealed all that. Didn't they start using Russian made microprocessors? Makes sense that they start banning Windows 10. Companies like Microsoft are at the mercy of the American government, at least up to a certain extent. It's sad, but that's how it works.
- btgeekboy 11y ago
  Perhaps it's sad, but maybe it's the catalyst for change we need. Microsoft can lose a few individuals as customers and not blink an eye. Losing significant quantities of foreign governments as customers due to US government policies and actions may not go over so well with their bottom line.
  - 1971genocide 11y ago
    The silver lining in all this is that there would be increased demand for programmers of all sorts ! Paradoxically mistrust between government helps money to flow in science.
keithpeter 11y ago
Isn't the enterprise/managed version of Windows 10 different? I thought that the larger organisations to manage their own updates (WUSUS?) and that there would not be the need to process information on Microsoft's servers?
throwawayaway 11y ago
With FASHIONCLEFT being public knowledge, I'm surprised there's any controversy about this: https://www.eff.org/document/20150117-spiegel-technical-description-fashioncleft-protocol https://www.eff.org/document/20150117-spiegel-technical-desc...
informatimago 11y ago
Totally agree. I'd even move to allow importing software and hardware (firmware) only under the condition that the sources be released, audited by the importing country, validated and recompiled (with validated compilers) by the importing country. I can see only advantages to such a scheme: 1- promotes free(dom) software / open source, 2- improves security by forced auditing, 3- by increasing the cost of importing software, promote local production of software, therefore 4- reduce unemployment, 5- this would detect bad firmware (toyota, jeep), before it can be used in deadly applications. etc.
jdimov9 11y ago
Why ANY government would use closed-source US software has always been beyond me. The only explanation I can think of is utter ignorance. Not even bribery explains it (which I know is a BIG part of it, but still makes zero sense from national security perspective).
a3n 11y ago
I would hope that the US government would ban Windows 10 on government computers.
zkhalique 11y ago
I commend Russians for being pretty savvy about operating systems these days. Building their own, sponsoring Linux variants, and now this. I can see how Microsoft's OS can be seen as a USA trojan horse for other countries, and I won't be surprised if others (China) follow suit. Even as other US companies tout increased security practices (Apple Apple)
- sremani 11y ago
  This is not new, whether it is RedFlag Linux in China and Munich bending over backwards trying to accommodate Linux etc. There is a dose of envy about US corporations around the world. Remember China did some kind of quasi ban on Windows 8 ? Time to time, there is a bureaucratic circle jerk, which becomes headline news but just the reality of the world hits.. every one forgets and moves on.
  - zkhalique 11y ago
    Windows 10 is much more egregious that Windows 8
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
Animats 11y ago
Well, they're not wrong to do that. Note that Medvedev is behind this. He's Putin's alternate; when Putin hit his term limit, Medvedev ran for Premier and won, then deferred all decisions to Putin. So this is official policy, not some minor Duma member. Windows 10 may be the worst product change since New Coke.
- sremani 11y ago
  You are exaggerating, I understand there are concerns about the "privacy" part but I would not call Windows 10 worst of anything.
- 9mit3t2m9h9a 11y ago
  Medvedev has not yet said anything on this topic. He is the receiver of the plea by deputy speaker (deputy chairman) of parliament representing «Just Russia» (a minority ultra-loyal fraction in parliament). By now the voices for banning or restricting Windows 10 are from Levichev («Just Russia») and some defense lawyers. The receivers (not authors) of such petitions are currently Medvedev (current prime minister and former president), supreme state prosecution/oversight office (has some similarities and some differences with attorney general and his staff) and communication oversight agency (the agency responsible, among other things, for allocating radio frequencies and for keeping the internet censorship blocklist).
9mit3t2m9h9a 11y ago
Technically, it is not that the parliament as an organisation asks to prohibit Windows 10. It is only coming from a representative of one minority fraction «Just Russia» (generally considered fully and completely loyal to government (as opposed to mostly loyal Liberal-Democrats, who are not liberal democrats in any Western meaning, and Communists), but even more populist than the government pseudo-party United Russia). He is a deputy speaker (deputy chairman) for parliament; each minority fraction has got a deputy speaker position. So this plea may be ignored. Or it could be used as a trigger to issue arbitrary regulations on arbitrary possibly unrelated topic. If there is a political decision to move to open-source tools (this is a big if), it will be actually not that hard to implement (if we are speaking about office use). Sensible options for use in government organisations include ALT Linux (an RPM-based independent distribution developed mostly in Russia which managed to obtain a few Russia-specific certifications) and MSVS (Mobile System Of Armed Forces; think CentOS with some special access control tools). Threats of forbidding Microsoft Windows use in some settings (previous attempts, for example, promoted allowing training and support expenses but forbidding licensing expenses in school budgets) apparently were previously used as bargaining tools in Russia. (Russian is my native language and I live in Russia)

91 points by ommunist 11y ago

Probably a smart thing to do. For security reasons, it seems like country's using secure open source software that they can audit makes a lot of sense. I like Microsoft and Apple but who knows what pressure might be applied to them to back doors computers shipped to specific countries.

prodmerc 11y ago
Bet you wouldn't be downvoted if it was any other country :-). I don't like the Russian government, but they have a point - Windows 10 borders on 'insane' when it comes to the user data it shares "anonymously". Plus it helps the open source communities... Then again, I don't trust Android and Google Docs apps that want access to my files, information, contacts, microphone, and more...
- zkhalique 11y ago
  We install a keylogger and store your passwords... anonymously! To help you. 1Password? LastPass? Nah we don't know anything about the state of the art.
- mark_l_watson 11y ago
  I use an Android Note 4, but I don't install many apps. I use a web browser instead for Facebook, Twitter, and many other sites instead of installing apps. I do this because of the permissions many apps require, even though they don't need some permissions to support their functionality.
  - prodmerc 11y ago
    I'm also surprised at how many apps need to run in the background. Notepads, music players, file explorers, an expense manager - why would they need to run all the time if I don't even use them and haven't set up any syncing. Not to mention that Google Play Services is draining my battery like crazy by using GPS and keeping the CPU awake for way too long...
_mgr 11y ago
See "Microsoft Government Security Program".
- scholia 11y ago
  Presumably the point being that the Russian government (like many others) has access to Windows source code. Well, we know they have XP and Windows 7. I don't know about Windows 10, but that seems less likely at this stage.
  - nobullet 11y ago
    Don't overestimate them. I don't believe MS or US government would give access to source code to anybody with "alternative" world insight. It's like to give access to source code to N. Korea.
    - ommunist 11y ago
      Well, for Win 7 MS had a "special co-operation agreement" with the modern Russian analog of the KGB agency, and disclosed Win 7 OS source code in full. There also was co-operation around Win 8 http://www.gazeta.ru/business/2011/12/01/3854510.shtml http://www.gazeta.ru/business/2011/12/01/3854510.shtml, but not around Skype sources.
    - scholia 11y ago
      Not sure what your point is. Also, not sure why my factual comment has been downvoted. (Is this reddit?) However, there is no shortage of info for anyone who knows how to use Google. To quote Computer Weekly: An agreement signed in 2002 gave Russia access to the source code for Windows XP, 2000 and Server 2000. Under the latest agreement, Russia will gain access to the source code for Windows 7, Server 2008 R2, SQL Server and Office 2010. http://www.computerweekly.com/news/1280093257/Microsoft-shares-source-code-with-Russian-government http://www.computerweekly.com/news/1280093257/Microsoft-shar... It's part of Microsoft's Shared Source Initiative http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/default.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/default.aspx All governmental requests (whether from local, state, provincial, or national governments or agencies) for access to Microsoft product source code must be directed to the Government Security Program Team. They can be contacted at gspteam@microsoft.com http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/government-security-program.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/government-secur...

ZenoArrow 11y ago

I wonder if they'll continue supporting ReactOS. Would be good to see increased resources to support its growth. https://www.reactos.org/node/946 https://www.reactos.org/node/946 Looks like jobs are available, so if any C/C++ coders wanted to be paid to work on an open-source Windows-compatible OS, the opportunities exist... https://www.reactos.org/node/785 https://www.reactos.org/node/785

dingdingdang 11y ago
I don't have the C skills necessary but I would love to see ReactOS reach mature (-enough) state for work use soon: the new, privacy invading, direction that MS are taking their OS in with Win10 is unacceptable to me and yet my productivity on Windows in general is so much higher than Linux/OSX (probably just habit to be honest, I'll soon enough find out unless MS comes out with different approach to privacy defaults)
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  I'm in the same boat as you. I definitely won't be switching to Windows 10 with the privacy settings as they are, but I prefer working on Windows over Linux, mainly because I'm more confident that it won't break in some way (I've not had the best of luck with Linux, though I've seen it get progressively better, and I'm glad about the emerging work on Wayland/Mir, I just wish the audio stack had an overhaul too). Fingers crossed ReactOS will be stable by the time Windows 7 is no longer supported, either that and bite the bullet and switch to Linux/BSD.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - raptorjesus 11y ago
    I've been using both Unix and NT since about 1996. I agree with you entirely. The killer for me is a weird combination of Stockholm syndrome and a seemingly drug-like addiction to Windows that I just can't shift. One minute I'll be swearing at the 15th problem of the day that occured on Windows and then spend all Saturday installing a Linux distribution and killing off my Windows Phone and Live accounts. By Sunday it's got Windows back on it and I'm at it like a raving crack addict again. But I know it's hurting me. I know Linux well and am responsible for a fair chunk of Linux kit but I always end up with it on Windows again. Last time: unity won't show file copy dialogs suddenly, duplicity backup won't work due to a bug in Ubuntu that has been open for over a year, my FortiClient VPN drops every 5 minutes, I can't find a RDP client (so I can still connect to my day job) that works properly. Argh just kills me this. I want to do something else for a living now.

gpvos 11y ago

Maybe this will be the year of Linux on the desktop.

k__ 11y ago
Hopefully. But it seems they'd rather push ReactOS.
- superskierpat 11y ago
  Linux user here, but I'm still pretty glad to see an open source version of windows being supported, even if it the russian government.
  - k__ 11y ago
    Yes. AFAIK ReactOS works together with Wine, so it could probably improve the integration of Windows apps in Linux.

farresito 11y ago

Doesn't surprise me, honestly. The USA has gotten a fairly bad reputation the past two years after Snowden revealed all that. Didn't they start using Russian made microprocessors? Makes sense that they start banning Windows 10. Companies like Microsoft are at the mercy of the American government, at least up to a certain extent. It's sad, but that's how it works.

btgeekboy 11y ago
Perhaps it's sad, but maybe it's the catalyst for change we need. Microsoft can lose a few individuals as customers and not blink an eye. Losing significant quantities of foreign governments as customers due to US government policies and actions may not go over so well with their bottom line.
- 1971genocide 11y ago
  The silver lining in all this is that there would be increased demand for programmers of all sorts ! Paradoxically mistrust between government helps money to flow in science.

keithpeter 11y ago

Isn't the enterprise/managed version of Windows 10 different? I thought that the larger organisations to manage their own updates (WUSUS?) and that there would not be the need to process information on Microsoft's servers?

throwawayaway 11y ago

With FASHIONCLEFT being public knowledge, I'm surprised there's any controversy about this: https://www.eff.org/document/20150117-spiegel-technical-description-fashioncleft-protocol https://www.eff.org/document/20150117-spiegel-technical-desc...

informatimago 11y ago

Totally agree. I'd even move to allow importing software and hardware (firmware) only under the condition that the sources be released, audited by the importing country, validated and recompiled (with validated compilers) by the importing country. I can see only advantages to such a scheme: 1- promotes free(dom) software / open source, 2- improves security by forced auditing, 3- by increasing the cost of importing software, promote local production of software, therefore 4- reduce unemployment, 5- this would detect bad firmware (toyota, jeep), before it can be used in deadly applications. etc.

jdimov9 11y ago

Why ANY government would use closed-source US software has always been beyond me. The only explanation I can think of is utter ignorance. Not even bribery explains it (which I know is a BIG part of it, but still makes zero sense from national security perspective).

a3n 11y ago

I would hope that the US government would ban Windows 10 on government computers.

zkhalique 11y ago

I commend Russians for being pretty savvy about operating systems these days. Building their own, sponsoring Linux variants, and now this. I can see how Microsoft's OS can be seen as a USA trojan horse for other countries, and I won't be surprised if others (China) follow suit. Even as other US companies tout increased security practices (Apple Apple)

sremani 11y ago
This is not new, whether it is RedFlag Linux in China and Munich bending over backwards trying to accommodate Linux etc. There is a dose of envy about US corporations around the world. Remember China did some kind of quasi ban on Windows 8 ? Time to time, there is a bureaucratic circle jerk, which becomes headline news but just the reality of the world hits.. every one forgets and moves on.
- zkhalique 11y ago
  Windows 10 is much more egregious that Windows 8
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

Animats 11y ago

Well, they're not wrong to do that. Note that Medvedev is behind this. He's Putin's alternate; when Putin hit his term limit, Medvedev ran for Premier and won, then deferred all decisions to Putin. So this is official policy, not some minor Duma member. Windows 10 may be the worst product change since New Coke.

sremani 11y ago
You are exaggerating, I understand there are concerns about the "privacy" part but I would not call Windows 10 worst of anything.
9mit3t2m9h9a 11y ago
Medvedev has not yet said anything on this topic. He is the receiver of the plea by deputy speaker (deputy chairman) of parliament representing «Just Russia» (a minority ultra-loyal fraction in parliament). By now the voices for banning or restricting Windows 10 are from Levichev («Just Russia») and some defense lawyers. The receivers (not authors) of such petitions are currently Medvedev (current prime minister and former president), supreme state prosecution/oversight office (has some similarities and some differences with attorney general and his staff) and communication oversight agency (the agency responsible, among other things, for allocating radio frequencies and for keeping the internet censorship blocklist).

9mit3t2m9h9a 11y ago

Technically, it is not that the parliament as an organisation asks to prohibit Windows 10. It is only coming from a representative of one minority fraction «Just Russia» (generally considered fully and completely loyal to government (as opposed to mostly loyal Liberal-Democrats, who are not liberal democrats in any Western meaning, and Communists), but even more populist than the government pseudo-party United Russia). He is a deputy speaker (deputy chairman) for parliament; each minority fraction has got a deputy speaker position. So this plea may be ignored. Or it could be used as a trigger to issue arbitrary regulations on arbitrary possibly unrelated topic. If there is a political decision to move to open-source tools (this is a big if), it will be actually not that hard to implement (if we are speaking about office use). Sensible options for use in government organisations include ALT Linux (an RPM-based independent distribution developed mostly in Russia which managed to obtain a few Russia-specific certifications) and MSVS (Mobile System Of Armed Forces; think CentOS with some special access control tools). Threats of forbidding Microsoft Windows use in some settings (previous attempts, for example, promoted allowing training and support expenses but forbidding licensing expenses in school budgets) apparently were previously used as bargaining tools in Russia. (Russian is my native language and I live in Russia)