4 ms·

There's a lot of less experienced folks that could just benefit from being around people that think in a programmatic mindset. I taught Python for a while at on

by edge17 11y ago

There's a lot of less experienced folks that could just benefit from being around people that think in a programmatic mindset. I taught Python for a while at one of the bootcamps you hear about, and the biggest hurdle for me (the instructor) to overcome was getting a student (often times liberal arts background) to form strong mental structures for data structures, manipulating them mentally, etc. This is a good opportunity for somebody.

Kalium 11y ago
The problem there is that our hypothetical student is trying to build a castle without a foundation. It's possible, abstractly speaking, but both unduly difficult and unlikely to end well. If by some miracle it doesn't fall over in the short term, it's highly likely to be a major problem when it comes time for serious renovations. I think the situation we're in is an uncomfortable one. Basically, the tech world needs people, and the four-year approach seems too slow. Sadly, nothing I've seen - and I've been affiliated with a bootcamp - seems to both provide the people required and give them the grounding for a career. We as an industry have this burning need to believe that there must be something better. However, I submit that this is the equivalent of protesting "There must be a better way!" when confronted with an uncomfortable policy decision. In both cases the sentiment is laudable, but fails to conjure the alternative into being. It is a good opportunity for somebody. As near as I can tell, that somebody is the four-year CS programs of the world. The only alternative I can see is bifurcating development work into high-skill people who know CS and low-skill code monkeys. I'm uncomfortable with this, but I suppose it could be workable. We'd just have to disabuse all those code monkeys of the illusion that they're going to become computer scientists.
- edge17 11y ago
  I have no idea who your hypothetical students are, mine were real ones that were trying to retrain and enter the job force as developers. Certainly castles aren't built on good intentions, but people have to start somewhere. These apprenticeships are for like $500/week. That's not a good opportunity for some in a four-year CS program.
  - Kalium 11y ago
    Full-fledged modern software engineering careers aren't really built on knowing a bit of Python, either. They're built on understanding computers and then incidentally Python. In theory people can learn the rest on their own, but in practice this is so rare as to be not worth discussing. I'm saying that the alternative models proposed are even worse fits for the problem than the model considered lacking. This isn't a field currently structured for a relatively short training period to lead to a typical career. Maybe medicine should be the goal model. Doctors and nurses, code monkeys and software engineers.
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      Better look for another example, in many European countries nursing is a 4 year degree as well.
      - Kalium 11y ago
        Same is true in the US. I picked it knowing that. The comparison still holds, because you have a sharp divide in the level of education between the two.
        pjmlp 11y ago
        Ah, I thought you meant something like one has higher and the other is apprenticeship.
      - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
        Grade inflation :-(
    - LunaSea 11y ago
      I highly disagree. You could start most people with an actual job in web development after a year or two with solid foundations. You don't need to relearn imaginary numbers or assembly programming to be a good software developer.
spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
But the "industry" doesn't want to pay for this training
- ritetag 11y ago
  And we don't need to. I did two unpaid internships. FOr the first, I had to pay Penn State for the credits and CBS didn't pay interns - because they don't need to. I did the second at age 43 - and I learned what I needed to before starting up (RiteTag). A waste? Not for me. - Saul

by edge17 11y ago

Kalium 11y ago

The problem there is that our hypothetical student is trying to build a castle without a foundation. It's possible, abstractly speaking, but both unduly difficult and unlikely to end well. If by some miracle it doesn't fall over in the short term, it's highly likely to be a major problem when it comes time for serious renovations. I think the situation we're in is an uncomfortable one. Basically, the tech world needs people, and the four-year approach seems too slow. Sadly, nothing I've seen - and I've been affiliated with a bootcamp - seems to both provide the people required and give them the grounding for a career. We as an industry have this burning need to believe that there must be something better. However, I submit that this is the equivalent of protesting "There must be a better way!" when confronted with an uncomfortable policy decision. In both cases the sentiment is laudable, but fails to conjure the alternative into being. It is a good opportunity for somebody. As near as I can tell, that somebody is the four-year CS programs of the world. The only alternative I can see is bifurcating development work into high-skill people who know CS and low-skill code monkeys. I'm uncomfortable with this, but I suppose it could be workable. We'd just have to disabuse all those code monkeys of the illusion that they're going to become computer scientists.

edge17 11y ago
I have no idea who your hypothetical students are, mine were real ones that were trying to retrain and enter the job force as developers. Certainly castles aren't built on good intentions, but people have to start somewhere. These apprenticeships are for like $500/week. That's not a good opportunity for some in a four-year CS program.
- Kalium 11y ago
  Full-fledged modern software engineering careers aren't really built on knowing a bit of Python, either. They're built on understanding computers and then incidentally Python. In theory people can learn the rest on their own, but in practice this is so rare as to be not worth discussing. I'm saying that the alternative models proposed are even worse fits for the problem than the model considered lacking. This isn't a field currently structured for a relatively short training period to lead to a typical career. Maybe medicine should be the goal model. Doctors and nurses, code monkeys and software engineers.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    Better look for another example, in many European countries nursing is a 4 year degree as well.
    - Kalium 11y ago
      Same is true in the US. I picked it knowing that. The comparison still holds, because you have a sharp divide in the level of education between the two.
      - pjmlp 11y ago
        Ah, I thought you meant something like one has higher and the other is apprenticeship.
    - spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
      Grade inflation :-(
  - LunaSea 11y ago
    I highly disagree. You could start most people with an actual job in web development after a year or two with solid foundations. You don't need to relearn imaginary numbers or assembly programming to be a good software developer.

spacecowboy_lon 11y ago

But the "industry" doesn't want to pay for this training

ritetag 11y ago
And we don't need to. I did two unpaid internships. FOr the first, I had to pay Penn State for the credits and CBS didn't pay interns - because they don't need to. I did the second at age 43 - and I learned what I needed to before starting up (RiteTag). A waste? Not for me. - Saul