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The observation that shoplifting is the best option that some people are left with is a grim indictment of who we are. Britain is already a welfare state. How

by hugh_ 17y ago

The observation that shoplifting is the best option that some people are left with is a grim indictment of who we are. Britain is already a welfare state. How much more welfare-y does he want it to be? Also, doesn't "caring for the truly needy" fall into the Church's mission statement? If a starving person comes to a priest, shouldn't the priest share his own food rather than telling him to go steal from someone else?

javert 17y ago
Agreed. Certainly the Church has not exhausted its resources feeding the poor, and it should do so before it resorts to encouraging them to steal.
- pbhjpbhj 17y ago
  the Church has not exhausted its resources feeding the poor And should it? Should we for example sell our local building to pay the heating bills of the local poor? How then will we meet the spiritual needs of the people. Where can we congregate. How will we organise the meeting of the physical and spiritual needs in future years without somewhere to meet together, work together, pray together?
  - javert 17y ago
    Given that your moral code preaches altruism and self-sacrifice, yes. If someone is in the situation that they will die if they do not get material resources from somewhere, you should give them what they need to survive before you pay your own heating bills. Otherwise, you're hypocrites. I'm going to tell poor people that if they have to steal in order to survive, they should steal from churches.
    - pbhjpbhj 17y ago
      I'm poor (according to our government we live well below the poverty line but things are not that bad, gov metrics are just screwy; I digress) how would I gain from stealing from other poor people. Surely to increase the wealth amongst the poor, money needs to be taken from the wealthy - Tesco make how many million UKP every day? Stealing from poor people is simply stupid, morality aside. If I give everything away today then tomorrow the guys who I've helped are still going to be needy but my family and myself will also be in need. How is that helping. We do what we can whilst maintaining our own existence. Granted I bought trousers yesterday giving me 2 pairs that don't have holes in (4 pairs I can wear in public) but it does make it difficult to work without having clean clothes to change into. I don't think it is hypocritical to hold that others with more resources should help more than me. Christianity does teach altruism and self-sacrifice but these are not the prime message - relationship with God is utmost and we are not taught to be stupid but instead to be generous with the things (and time) we are blessed with. (Incidentally not paying heating bills is also theft as gas is paid in arrears.)
      - javert 17y ago
        I didn't say YOU should give poor people money, I said the Church should. And I'm not going to tell poor people to steal from you; I'm going to tell them to steal from the Church.
tptacek 17y ago
Yes.

by hugh_ 17y ago

javert 17y ago

Agreed. Certainly the Church has not exhausted its resources feeding the poor, and it should do so before it resorts to encouraging them to steal.

pbhjpbhj 17y ago
the Church has not exhausted its resources feeding the poor And should it? Should we for example sell our local building to pay the heating bills of the local poor? How then will we meet the spiritual needs of the people. Where can we congregate. How will we organise the meeting of the physical and spiritual needs in future years without somewhere to meet together, work together, pray together?
- javert 17y ago
  Given that your moral code preaches altruism and self-sacrifice, yes. If someone is in the situation that they will die if they do not get material resources from somewhere, you should give them what they need to survive before you pay your own heating bills. Otherwise, you're hypocrites. I'm going to tell poor people that if they have to steal in order to survive, they should steal from churches.
  - pbhjpbhj 17y ago
    I'm poor (according to our government we live well below the poverty line but things are not that bad, gov metrics are just screwy; I digress) how would I gain from stealing from other poor people. Surely to increase the wealth amongst the poor, money needs to be taken from the wealthy - Tesco make how many million UKP every day? Stealing from poor people is simply stupid, morality aside. If I give everything away today then tomorrow the guys who I've helped are still going to be needy but my family and myself will also be in need. How is that helping. We do what we can whilst maintaining our own existence. Granted I bought trousers yesterday giving me 2 pairs that don't have holes in (4 pairs I can wear in public) but it does make it difficult to work without having clean clothes to change into. I don't think it is hypocritical to hold that others with more resources should help more than me. Christianity does teach altruism and self-sacrifice but these are not the prime message - relationship with God is utmost and we are not taught to be stupid but instead to be generous with the things (and time) we are blessed with. (Incidentally not paying heating bills is also theft as gas is paid in arrears.)
    - javert 17y ago
      I didn't say YOU should give poor people money, I said the Church should. And I'm not going to tell poor people to steal from you; I'm going to tell them to steal from the Church.

tptacek 17y ago

Yes.