4 ms·

Lucky engineers in Silicon Valley. Nowhere else in the world developers have it so easy.

adaml_623 11y ago
In the UK they have articles where companies complain about skill shortages and developers with unrealistic salary expectations. The laws of the supply and demand are slow to move some markets.
- wyclif 11y ago
  Yes, and those articles are totally unconvincing drivel. If there really was a shortage, and the role is truly crucial, then they'll increase their offer. But the UK is not going to be able to fill those roles when engineers can get an offer in SV from Google, Facebook, or Apple. "There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for very little money." ~ David "Pardo" Keppel If you're having trouble hiring, it's probably because you're not paying enough. It turns out that talented people are worth paying a lot for.
  - DamnYuppie 11y ago
    And then the companies come and ask to raise the number of visa's for foreign workers.
    - wyclif 11y ago
      But nobody says we need to increase the number of visas for CEOs and VCs. That's because the cultural expectation is that those people make lots of money. Engineers need to stop selling themselves short, or allowing MBAs to short them, as if they are mere "code monkeys."
    - pixelp3 11y ago
      This argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me when it comes to bigger companies like Google, MS, Apple, etc. etc. Do you know how much H1Bs at these companies make? The data is open, you can look at how much Google pays them in the Bay Area for example. To say that Americans WON'T accept such salaries is ridiculous to me
- cylinder 11y ago
  UK startups aren't flooded with easy VC money to the extent that Valley startups are. That's how they're able to throw around big salaries and equity, it's almost funny money. Once these companies mature and have to come back to the reality of managing costs, the talented engineers will once again bail to the newest hypergrowth startups.
  - GVIrish 11y ago
    I'm sure startup money is a large part of it, but bottom line is that corporate culture at-large still hasn't adjusted to the reality that great technical people can make or break your company and that maybe they actually are worth the kind of money that used to be reserved for management types or sales.
  - ryanSrich 11y ago
    I agree. There's a reason why Software Engineers make $85k at Apple but make $180k at AirBnB.
- spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
  They have been saying this in the UK for the last 50 years :-( And its not if Chartered Engineers (PE) earn anything like say a senior hospital consultant or a Barister.
- spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
  They have been saying this in the UK for the last 50 years :-( And its not if Chartered Engineers (PE) earn anything like say a senior hospital consultant or a Barister.
omouse 11y ago
well you have to fight for what you want. Non-competes should be illegal for example -_-'
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- gress 11y ago
  They are in California.
  - omouse 11y ago
    They've been struck down in court in Ontario, Canada but that doesn't stop companies from shoving the wording into employment contracts and being insistent on it.
    - gress 11y ago
      Just because someone insists on something doesn't mean you have to do it.
geebee 11y ago
Keep in mind, you also have to be technically strong and organizationally savvy to get to this level. For starters, as a baseline, you need to be very sharp at coding interview style questions. This isn't fizzbuzz. Based on my tech interviews at google and a few other companies, I'd say a question like [1] "find the sub matrix with the largest sum in an NXM matrix" is something they really will expect you do complete at a high level of accuracy in 45 minutes at a whiteboard, including run time efficiency improvements. You'll get some help, and they won't be complete sticklers about syntax, but they will largely expect you to writing accurate code that would compile and run properly without too much help. You'll need to be able to follow through on questions like this in a areas, such as binary, algorithms and data structures, and some operating systems issues (threads and processes, in particular), along with good overall design skills. While it is absolutely possible to get to this point without a CS degree, and many people do, it requires an academic talent, mindset, and ability to focus. That's the baseline. Generally, that's the ante that gets you in the game. I think there's a way around, which is to create your own projects that are so high profile that you get hired directly into a company at a high enough level that you bypass the entry exams. However, this is rare, and plenty of people who have excellent track records are still filtered out at the interview level. After that, you need savvy. My observation after 15 years in the field is that the people who are considered technically exceptional are also organizationally savvy. They're not fakers, at all, they really are good technically, but they understand how to pursue the good projects and avoid the bad ones. It becomes self-affirming after a while, their reputation allows them this kind of selectivity. But they don't get stuck on legacy projects that don't enhance their skills. They are able to navigate organizations well, and this requires political and social savvy. In short, these people are both very strong technically and have the social savvy to get high profile projects where they will continue to learn and gain recognition for their achievements. This combination is relatively rare in humans. I will agree that this kind of person has opportunities in the valley that are available only to a lesser degree elsewhere, and may not be available at all in some places. [1] NOT an actual question from my interviews, but at about the level I'd say I experienced (maybe even a bit easier). I highly recommend the book "cracking the coding interview", just be aware that yes, really, they will expect this sort of thing in 45 minutes at a whiteboard with accuracy and efficiency.
- 11y ago

In the UK they have articles where companies complain about skill shortages and developers with unrealistic salary expectations. The laws of the supply and demand are slow to move some markets.

wyclif 11y ago
Yes, and those articles are totally unconvincing drivel. If there really was a shortage, and the role is truly crucial, then they'll increase their offer. But the UK is not going to be able to fill those roles when engineers can get an offer in SV from Google, Facebook, or Apple. "There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for very little money." ~ David "Pardo" Keppel If you're having trouble hiring, it's probably because you're not paying enough. It turns out that talented people are worth paying a lot for.
- DamnYuppie 11y ago
  And then the companies come and ask to raise the number of visa's for foreign workers.
  - wyclif 11y ago
    But nobody says we need to increase the number of visas for CEOs and VCs. That's because the cultural expectation is that those people make lots of money. Engineers need to stop selling themselves short, or allowing MBAs to short them, as if they are mere "code monkeys."
  - pixelp3 11y ago
    This argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me when it comes to bigger companies like Google, MS, Apple, etc. etc. Do you know how much H1Bs at these companies make? The data is open, you can look at how much Google pays them in the Bay Area for example. To say that Americans WON'T accept such salaries is ridiculous to me
cylinder 11y ago
UK startups aren't flooded with easy VC money to the extent that Valley startups are. That's how they're able to throw around big salaries and equity, it's almost funny money. Once these companies mature and have to come back to the reality of managing costs, the talented engineers will once again bail to the newest hypergrowth startups.
- GVIrish 11y ago
  I'm sure startup money is a large part of it, but bottom line is that corporate culture at-large still hasn't adjusted to the reality that great technical people can make or break your company and that maybe they actually are worth the kind of money that used to be reserved for management types or sales.
- ryanSrich 11y ago
  I agree. There's a reason why Software Engineers make $85k at Apple but make $180k at AirBnB.
spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
They have been saying this in the UK for the last 50 years :-( And its not if Chartered Engineers (PE) earn anything like say a senior hospital consultant or a Barister.
spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
They have been saying this in the UK for the last 50 years :-( And its not if Chartered Engineers (PE) earn anything like say a senior hospital consultant or a Barister.

omouse 11y ago

well you have to fight for what you want. Non-competes should be illegal for example -_-'

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
gress 11y ago
They are in California.
- omouse 11y ago
  They've been struck down in court in Ontario, Canada but that doesn't stop companies from shoving the wording into employment contracts and being insistent on it.
  - gress 11y ago
    Just because someone insists on something doesn't mean you have to do it.

geebee 11y ago

Keep in mind, you also have to be technically strong and organizationally savvy to get to this level. For starters, as a baseline, you need to be very sharp at coding interview style questions. This isn't fizzbuzz. Based on my tech interviews at google and a few other companies, I'd say a question like [1] "find the sub matrix with the largest sum in an NXM matrix" is something they really will expect you do complete at a high level of accuracy in 45 minutes at a whiteboard, including run time efficiency improvements. You'll get some help, and they won't be complete sticklers about syntax, but they will largely expect you to writing accurate code that would compile and run properly without too much help. You'll need to be able to follow through on questions like this in a areas, such as binary, algorithms and data structures, and some operating systems issues (threads and processes, in particular), along with good overall design skills. While it is absolutely possible to get to this point without a CS degree, and many people do, it requires an academic talent, mindset, and ability to focus. That's the baseline. Generally, that's the ante that gets you in the game. I think there's a way around, which is to create your own projects that are so high profile that you get hired directly into a company at a high enough level that you bypass the entry exams. However, this is rare, and plenty of people who have excellent track records are still filtered out at the interview level. After that, you need savvy. My observation after 15 years in the field is that the people who are considered technically exceptional are also organizationally savvy. They're not fakers, at all, they really are good technically, but they understand how to pursue the good projects and avoid the bad ones. It becomes self-affirming after a while, their reputation allows them this kind of selectivity. But they don't get stuck on legacy projects that don't enhance their skills. They are able to navigate organizations well, and this requires political and social savvy. In short, these people are both very strong technically and have the social savvy to get high profile projects where they will continue to learn and gain recognition for their achievements. This combination is relatively rare in humans. I will agree that this kind of person has opportunities in the valley that are available only to a lesser degree elsewhere, and may not be available at all in some places. [1] NOT an actual question from my interviews, but at about the level I'd say I experienced (maybe even a bit easier). I highly recommend the book "cracking the coding interview", just be aware that yes, really, they will expect this sort of thing in 45 minutes at a whiteboard with accuracy and efficiency.

11y ago