6 ms·

Upstarts raid giants for talent in Silicon Valley

58 points by pramodbiligiri 11y ago

trhway 11y ago
the higher the chimney the stronger the draft. Sucking up high talent into the upstarts means good openings in the giants for the rest of us :)
- eru 11y ago
  This seems like the Luddite fallacy backwards?
  - thwest 11y ago
    You shouldn't be so quick to buy into the myth that the Luddites were anti-technology.
    - eru 11y ago
      Oh, I didn't want to talk about technology. What I meant, just because good people leave a company, doesn't mean that there are new openings for lesser skilled people. Just like good people flocking to a company don't necessarily diminish the company's appetite for hiring lesser skilled people, it might even make hiring `minions' for the `rockstars' more attractive, if they are complementary.
      - tsotha 11y ago
        But this is how rockstars are made. You hire in as a minion, you work hard, learn everything you can, and after a few years you can leave a rockstar. I doubled my salary each time I moved for the first three development jobs.
        eru 11y ago
        Definitely. I didn't quite double mine each time, but I did get good raises out of jumping ship. But that had nothing to do with better people leaving my target companies.
- optimusclimb 11y ago
  Or maybe it just means try harder to follow the momentum and go for those upstarts? Years ago, I thought, "Why would I want to bust my butt to join Goog or similar and be a cog in a giant machine?" It seemed to me like you try hard to prove yourself to get in just to be on the bottom of the totem pole where being recognized would be very hard. So I didn't bother and worked at other smaller companies. In retrospect, it seems like your best move in the Valley IS to just try to get in to the biggest, best name, with the most talent flowing into it. IF and when you want to leave for somewhere smaller (or start your own), you'll be well served for having done it, networked, gotten the resume boost, etc. So while yes, it may be true that the updraft opens up spots, maybe if you get one, you'll be looking back and seeing that during those years, having Goog or similar on the resume will not be as boosting to your career as Uber or AirBNB et al.
  - trhway 11y ago
    >your best move in the Valley IS to just try to get in to the biggest, best name, with the most talent flowing into it. even better to get into such a company before it becomes that "best name". Unfortunately, on couple occasions i wasn't able to recognize it - they were such ugly ducklings back at the time :)
    - keithwhor 11y ago
      Isn't every successful startup an ugly duckling at some point?
      - venomsnake 11y ago
        Except Uber - they were (self) described as revolutionary since day 1.
        dylanjermiah 11y ago
        That is false. Travis and Garret just wanted to get a ride quickly (in '08). When they started in '10 neither wanted to run a 'limo company' as they described it, bringing in Ryan Graves. After Travis saw what it could be, he stepped in.
CmonDev 11y ago
> Two of the chefs who prepared meals for Googlers, Alvin San and Rafael Monfort, have been hired away by Uber and Airbnb in the last 18 months. Ha-ha, can't even keep the catering staff! Time to wake up and pay the market wage. > In addition, a nimble recruiter from a much-talked-out start-up can still move faster than even the most competitive companies like Google. And reply to every email, instead of leaving candidates waiting for weeks.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
smikhanov 11y ago
Lucky engineers in Silicon Valley. Nowhere else in the world developers have it so easy.
- adaml_623 11y ago
  In the UK they have articles where companies complain about skill shortages and developers with unrealistic salary expectations. The laws of the supply and demand are slow to move some markets.
  - wyclif 11y ago
    Yes, and those articles are totally unconvincing drivel. If there really was a shortage, and the role is truly crucial, then they'll increase their offer. But the UK is not going to be able to fill those roles when engineers can get an offer in SV from Google, Facebook, or Apple. "There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for very little money." ~ David "Pardo" Keppel If you're having trouble hiring, it's probably because you're not paying enough. It turns out that talented people are worth paying a lot for.
    - DamnYuppie 11y ago
      And then the companies come and ask to raise the number of visa's for foreign workers.
      - wyclif 11y ago
        But nobody says we need to increase the number of visas for CEOs and VCs. That's because the cultural expectation is that those people make lots of money. Engineers need to stop selling themselves short, or allowing MBAs to short them, as if they are mere "code monkeys."
      - pixelp3 11y ago
        This argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me when it comes to bigger companies like Google, MS, Apple, etc. etc. Do you know how much H1Bs at these companies make? The data is open, you can look at how much Google pays them in the Bay Area for example. To say that Americans WON'T accept such salaries is ridiculous to me
graycat 11y ago
> technology companies wage war on one another for top prospects by doling out six-figure salaries First, how far does a "six figure" salary go when living within commuting distance of a job in Silicon Valley? Can such a job buy a house, two late model cars, and support a wife and family, at at least a moderately high standard of living, while saving for emergencies, education for the kids, and retirement? Right, I thought not. Second, early in my career in a hot job market, my annual salary was a little over six times what a new, high end Camaro cost. And where I was living the cost of living was not especially high. So, to do that now, say, a Camaro for $50,000, would need $300,000 a year plus another 100% for Silicon Valley, $600,000 year, plus more for higher Federal taxes now, plus more for higher California taxes, entry level, non-management. Are people getting that in Silicon Valley? I thought not. Third, Silicon Valley is still the HQ of H1-B fraud, right? I thought so. Fourth, in a successful startup, other than founders and a few of the early employees, how many of the employees ever see any significant financial gain from their stock? Only a tiny fraction? Thought so. Fifth, what's this stuff about "talent"? Can that be measured by SAT scores, college grades in computer science, good projects in computing successfully completed, a world class research university Ph.D. in applied math with published work in nearly all of the topics in data science? Will HR even look at such things? I thought not. Instead they want why manhole covers are round? And they want skills -- Linux, Java, Python, etc., to hack code, 100 hours a week, on a laptop, at a folding table, in a big room, with all the tables packed with other coders? I thought so. Question: Why does the NYT publish such absurd, misleading, potentially harmful propaganda?
- geebee 11y ago
  I agree, it probably is time to retire the phrase "six figure salary" as a shorthand for "high pay". In San Francisco, the median housing price is well over a mil now, and daycare costs tend to run about $25,000 per kid. The median salary for a dental hygienist in SF is, according to US News "Best Jobs" (in turn, based on BLS data) is safely in the "six figures" at $112,970 (http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/dental-hygienist/salary http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/dental-hygienist/s...) I have no problem with good pay for dental hygienists, but this does provide a little context for what "six figure" really means in a brutally high cost region.
- 11y ago

the higher the chimney the stronger the draft. Sucking up high talent into the upstarts means good openings in the giants for the rest of us :)

eru 11y ago
This seems like the Luddite fallacy backwards?
- thwest 11y ago
  You shouldn't be so quick to buy into the myth that the Luddites were anti-technology.
  - eru 11y ago
    Oh, I didn't want to talk about technology. What I meant, just because good people leave a company, doesn't mean that there are new openings for lesser skilled people. Just like good people flocking to a company don't necessarily diminish the company's appetite for hiring lesser skilled people, it might even make hiring `minions' for the `rockstars' more attractive, if they are complementary.
    - tsotha 11y ago
      But this is how rockstars are made. You hire in as a minion, you work hard, learn everything you can, and after a few years you can leave a rockstar. I doubled my salary each time I moved for the first three development jobs.
      - eru 11y ago
        Definitely. I didn't quite double mine each time, but I did get good raises out of jumping ship. But that had nothing to do with better people leaving my target companies.
optimusclimb 11y ago
Or maybe it just means try harder to follow the momentum and go for those upstarts? Years ago, I thought, "Why would I want to bust my butt to join Goog or similar and be a cog in a giant machine?" It seemed to me like you try hard to prove yourself to get in just to be on the bottom of the totem pole where being recognized would be very hard. So I didn't bother and worked at other smaller companies. In retrospect, it seems like your best move in the Valley IS to just try to get in to the biggest, best name, with the most talent flowing into it. IF and when you want to leave for somewhere smaller (or start your own), you'll be well served for having done it, networked, gotten the resume boost, etc. So while yes, it may be true that the updraft opens up spots, maybe if you get one, you'll be looking back and seeing that during those years, having Goog or similar on the resume will not be as boosting to your career as Uber or AirBNB et al.
- trhway 11y ago
  >your best move in the Valley IS to just try to get in to the biggest, best name, with the most talent flowing into it. even better to get into such a company before it becomes that "best name". Unfortunately, on couple occasions i wasn't able to recognize it - they were such ugly ducklings back at the time :)
  - keithwhor 11y ago
    Isn't every successful startup an ugly duckling at some point?
    - venomsnake 11y ago
      Except Uber - they were (self) described as revolutionary since day 1.
      - dylanjermiah 11y ago
        That is false. Travis and Garret just wanted to get a ride quickly (in '08). When they started in '10 neither wanted to run a 'limo company' as they described it, bringing in Ryan Graves. After Travis saw what it could be, he stepped in.

CmonDev 11y ago

> Two of the chefs who prepared meals for Googlers, Alvin San and Rafael Monfort, have been hired away by Uber and Airbnb in the last 18 months. Ha-ha, can't even keep the catering staff! Time to wake up and pay the market wage. > In addition, a nimble recruiter from a much-talked-out start-up can still move faster than even the most competitive companies like Google. And reply to every email, instead of leaving candidates waiting for weeks.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

smikhanov 11y ago

Lucky engineers in Silicon Valley. Nowhere else in the world developers have it so easy.

adaml_623 11y ago
In the UK they have articles where companies complain about skill shortages and developers with unrealistic salary expectations. The laws of the supply and demand are slow to move some markets.
- wyclif 11y ago
  Yes, and those articles are totally unconvincing drivel. If there really was a shortage, and the role is truly crucial, then they'll increase their offer. But the UK is not going to be able to fill those roles when engineers can get an offer in SV from Google, Facebook, or Apple. "There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for very little money." ~ David "Pardo" Keppel If you're having trouble hiring, it's probably because you're not paying enough. It turns out that talented people are worth paying a lot for.
  - DamnYuppie 11y ago
    And then the companies come and ask to raise the number of visa's for foreign workers.
    - wyclif 11y ago
      But nobody says we need to increase the number of visas for CEOs and VCs. That's because the cultural expectation is that those people make lots of money. Engineers need to stop selling themselves short, or allowing MBAs to short them, as if they are mere "code monkeys."
    - pixelp3 11y ago
      This argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me when it comes to bigger companies like Google, MS, Apple, etc. etc. Do you know how much H1Bs at these companies make? The data is open, you can look at how much Google pays them in the Bay Area for example. To say that Americans WON'T accept such salaries is ridiculous to me

graycat 11y ago

> technology companies wage war on one another for top prospects by doling out six-figure salaries First, how far does a "six figure" salary go when living within commuting distance of a job in Silicon Valley? Can such a job buy a house, two late model cars, and support a wife and family, at at least a moderately high standard of living, while saving for emergencies, education for the kids, and retirement? Right, I thought not. Second, early in my career in a hot job market, my annual salary was a little over six times what a new, high end Camaro cost. And where I was living the cost of living was not especially high. So, to do that now, say, a Camaro for $50,000, would need $300,000 a year plus another 100% for Silicon Valley, $600,000 year, plus more for higher Federal taxes now, plus more for higher California taxes, entry level, non-management. Are people getting that in Silicon Valley? I thought not. Third, Silicon Valley is still the HQ of H1-B fraud, right? I thought so. Fourth, in a successful startup, other than founders and a few of the early employees, how many of the employees ever see any significant financial gain from their stock? Only a tiny fraction? Thought so. Fifth, what's this stuff about "talent"? Can that be measured by SAT scores, college grades in computer science, good projects in computing successfully completed, a world class research university Ph.D. in applied math with published work in nearly all of the topics in data science? Will HR even look at such things? I thought not. Instead they want why manhole covers are round? And they want skills -- Linux, Java, Python, etc., to hack code, 100 hours a week, on a laptop, at a folding table, in a big room, with all the tables packed with other coders? I thought so. Question: Why does the NYT publish such absurd, misleading, potentially harmful propaganda?

geebee 11y ago
I agree, it probably is time to retire the phrase "six figure salary" as a shorthand for "high pay". In San Francisco, the median housing price is well over a mil now, and daycare costs tend to run about $25,000 per kid. The median salary for a dental hygienist in SF is, according to US News "Best Jobs" (in turn, based on BLS data) is safely in the "six figures" at $112,970 (http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/dental-hygienist/salary http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/dental-hygienist/s...) I have no problem with good pay for dental hygienists, but this does provide a little context for what "six figure" really means in a brutally high cost region.
11y ago