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I remember being introduced to Linux by our programming TA, who used to come at classes with the 'You need Python' t-shirt (it was early '00s for me). "So you d

by varlock 11y ago

I remember being introduced to Linux by our programming TA, who used to come at classes with the 'You need Python' t-shirt (it was early '00s for me). "So you don't need to reboot after installing a program?" - I was shocked. And in awe. Then I jumped in the library and got myself a manual based on the UNIX 'System V R4' and am still amazed how 15 years later all commands still make sense (BTW, a link to the PDF copy of the SVR1 manual has passed here on HN a few days ago - I _so_ recommend it to anyone starting out[0]). Dissatisfied with RedHat, Mandrake and SUSE I fell in love with the minimalist Slackware - that was my first true love, the one you will never forget. Good memories, made of long nights recompiling the kernel, failing and wonder why nothing boots anymore, giggling when modprobing the module for the wireless device, and dreading leaving the home server up at nights with port 22 open (did I harden it enough?). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10052592 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10052592

nnoitra 11y ago
No, you don't need to reboot Linux. You need to consistently make fixes which include go to this config, change this line so that this software-package doesn't crash. Oh, it still doesn't work then please reformat it. If you want an OSX which doesn't require reboots OSX is the answer.
- ChrisClark 11y ago
  Some context: The last time nnoitra tried running Linux was in 1998.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    Yet I see this sentiment all the time on, of all places, Hacker News. People absolutely convinced GNU/Linux is some arcane, unusable dark art. It's quite baffling to watch, really. Then again, most people don't install Windows and OS X on hardware as heterogenous and diverse as what GNU/Linux frequents. If you can't even handle GNU/Linux, though, what does that say about people's receptiveness to research OS that completely shakes established paradigms? Are we just going to keep reinventing what is most convenient to our preestablished biases? Given the things coming out of GnomeOS and Freedesktop.org, it sure seems like it.
    - agumonkey 11y ago
      We can't blame people for failing to understand how generic programs and OS can be. About your last point, biases takes a huge amount of energy to overcome. I really wonder when such a shift will happen.
    - drivers99 11y ago
      Regarding your questions, have you seen this? Rob Pike's lament "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant": http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/utah2000/ http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/utah2000/
      - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
        Of course, it's a classic that remains pertinent.
    - WalterGR 11y ago
      ...then again, most people don't install Windows... on hardware as heterogenous and diverse as what GNU/Linux frequents. Leaving out the very micro (Raspberry Pi, etc.) and the very macro (supercomputing clusters) I highly, highly doubt that's the case. Before you buy a computer you plan to install Linux on, you check the compatibility lists. Before you buy a laptop to run Linux on, you check whether Linux has drivers for the Wifi chipset. Buying a graphics card? Does Linux have drivers that can fully exploit it? Arguments about Linux's alleged superior hardware compatibility seem to always be based on anecdotes about that one time a relative's Windows computer wouldn't talk to some printer. Walk into any Fry's or other similar store, pick a random piece of hardware off the shelf, and there's a significantly better chance of it both a. working at all and b. being fully supported on Windows over Linux.
- phkahler 11y ago
  I've been running Fedora for 10 years now, and I have no idea what you're talking about. I did have trouble of that sort with nVidia drivers until nouveau became an acceptable replacement, but never had configuration problems with apps. I hear Ubuntu is pretty good too. Don't get me wrong, I like Apple products too, but it's a bit harder to get some things on there like GCC.
- zxcvcxz 11y ago
  I think this is what happens when you try installing Gentoo or Arch, configure everything your self, and then realize you didn't do it right and now it's a constant headache. New users should really stick with the easiest to use distros like Ubuntu or Fedora, which IMO are on par with OS X in terms of usability and simplicity.
  - gknoy 11y ago
    Gentoo, /sigh. That was a great part of my linux learning experience. I bought into the hype a friend told me about "you have so much control!", and effectively shot myself in the foot because compilation time was so slow (and I didn't yet know enough to use it well). The slow manual install process? I can't remember any of it, and would have to read a howto again if I had to do it -- but I think it went a LONG way towards demystifying things: everything was just user-editable config files and sources. There's no magic, and almost everything is something I can change with compiler flags. Of course, I now heart ubuntu and debian, because I tend to agree with the choices of most package maintainers as far as compilation options, and my computer is fast enough that I don't think I'd notice if my office binary were maximally optimized or not. ;) However, I might not have gotten here had I not been exposed to Gentoo and Slackware long ago.
  - mrks_ 11y ago
    I think calling Ubuntu on par with OS X is a stretch. Not that it's that far, but I've had many more stability issues with the LTS versions of Ubuntu than with Mavericks or even Yosemite. I agree, though, that sticking to Ubuntu or Fedora for new users is a great idea. They are both excellent operating systems with regard to simplicity.
    - zxcvcxz 11y ago
      >I've had many more stability issues with the LTS versions of Ubuntu than with Mavericks or even Yosemite. By any chance are you running OS X on Apple hardware? If we took OS X and installed it on an Ubuntu Certified Dell PC we may find that it has the stability issues, so if you are comparing it to OS X running on Apple hardware it's not a very fair comparison, as it's being run under ideal circumstances and Linux is not.
- varlock 11y ago
  I think it depends on how you live it. I remember that doing ./config failed, and I honestly had no clue in the beginning. So, while some friends of mine suggested that I abandon Linux and use Windows "because it works, and you don't have to waste your time" I decided to `waste` my time. So I googled, asked around, watched the masters, and most importantly, learned. I tried again, failed again, and faster, but not on the same pitfall. Always on something new. And in the process I increased my knowledge of the system, of the programming languages used, I learned how to patch the software, clever and not-so-clever tricks. The best part? I'm still failing, and I'm still learning. I'm not into OS-wars - I just loved what I did, still do, and I'd do it again a million time :)
- sk8ingdom 11y ago
  I have a 2014 MBP and it seems all I ever do is reboot the damn thing for updates. It would be nice if the "re-open my windows" actually respected workspaces...
- odonnellryan 11y ago
  You got downvoted, but you make a good point, if not slightly hostile. However, I think it's great that people have those tools for Linux. Sure, they might need to be configured sometimes, but most of the time they're something someone online thought they needed so they made it. It's a great community. However, while I have had to make lots of configuration changes with Linux (even if it's just adding API keys, changing some simple and documented display parameters, sand so on) I've never experienced stability problems with software. I mean, sure there exists bad software, but I've always had great stability on Linux.
- TallGuyShort 11y ago
  Yeah OSX will just magically solve all your problems, unless you live in reality. But seriously - I was at a customer site yesterday with some colleagues and Wifi wasn't working for any of the Mac users. They were all told to reboot and then it worked. OS X is an excellent system, but it's shit stinks like the rest of us.
  - walshemj 11y ago
    OSX is defiantly a curates egg "good in parts" cough cough ntp :-)
- WalterGR 11y ago
  If you want an OSX which doesn't require reboots OSX is the answer. OSX requires a reboot after the weekly OS updates that each contain dozens upon dozens of security fixes. That OSX doesn't require reboots (and that it has a security track record that's better than Windows) is the Slashdot-esque 'inverse FUD' you realize you unconsciously bought into only after the fact.
agnivade 11y ago
Amazing feeling right ? Seriously, the way you describe it .. that's how people who truly love software should feel. Kudos !

by varlock 11y ago

nnoitra 11y ago

No, you don't need to reboot Linux. You need to consistently make fixes which include go to this config, change this line so that this software-package doesn't crash. Oh, it still doesn't work then please reformat it. If you want an OSX which doesn't require reboots OSX is the answer.

ChrisClark 11y ago
Some context: The last time nnoitra tried running Linux was in 1998.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  Yet I see this sentiment all the time on, of all places, Hacker News. People absolutely convinced GNU/Linux is some arcane, unusable dark art. It's quite baffling to watch, really. Then again, most people don't install Windows and OS X on hardware as heterogenous and diverse as what GNU/Linux frequents. If you can't even handle GNU/Linux, though, what does that say about people's receptiveness to research OS that completely shakes established paradigms? Are we just going to keep reinventing what is most convenient to our preestablished biases? Given the things coming out of GnomeOS and Freedesktop.org, it sure seems like it.
  - agumonkey 11y ago
    We can't blame people for failing to understand how generic programs and OS can be. About your last point, biases takes a huge amount of energy to overcome. I really wonder when such a shift will happen.
  - drivers99 11y ago
    Regarding your questions, have you seen this? Rob Pike's lament "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant": http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/utah2000/ http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/utah2000/
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      Of course, it's a classic that remains pertinent.
  - WalterGR 11y ago
    ...then again, most people don't install Windows... on hardware as heterogenous and diverse as what GNU/Linux frequents. Leaving out the very micro (Raspberry Pi, etc.) and the very macro (supercomputing clusters) I highly, highly doubt that's the case. Before you buy a computer you plan to install Linux on, you check the compatibility lists. Before you buy a laptop to run Linux on, you check whether Linux has drivers for the Wifi chipset. Buying a graphics card? Does Linux have drivers that can fully exploit it? Arguments about Linux's alleged superior hardware compatibility seem to always be based on anecdotes about that one time a relative's Windows computer wouldn't talk to some printer. Walk into any Fry's or other similar store, pick a random piece of hardware off the shelf, and there's a significantly better chance of it both a. working at all and b. being fully supported on Windows over Linux.
phkahler 11y ago
I've been running Fedora for 10 years now, and I have no idea what you're talking about. I did have trouble of that sort with nVidia drivers until nouveau became an acceptable replacement, but never had configuration problems with apps. I hear Ubuntu is pretty good too. Don't get me wrong, I like Apple products too, but it's a bit harder to get some things on there like GCC.
zxcvcxz 11y ago
I think this is what happens when you try installing Gentoo or Arch, configure everything your self, and then realize you didn't do it right and now it's a constant headache. New users should really stick with the easiest to use distros like Ubuntu or Fedora, which IMO are on par with OS X in terms of usability and simplicity.
- gknoy 11y ago
  Gentoo, /sigh. That was a great part of my linux learning experience. I bought into the hype a friend told me about "you have so much control!", and effectively shot myself in the foot because compilation time was so slow (and I didn't yet know enough to use it well). The slow manual install process? I can't remember any of it, and would have to read a howto again if I had to do it -- but I think it went a LONG way towards demystifying things: everything was just user-editable config files and sources. There's no magic, and almost everything is something I can change with compiler flags. Of course, I now heart ubuntu and debian, because I tend to agree with the choices of most package maintainers as far as compilation options, and my computer is fast enough that I don't think I'd notice if my office binary were maximally optimized or not. ;) However, I might not have gotten here had I not been exposed to Gentoo and Slackware long ago.
- mrks_ 11y ago
  I think calling Ubuntu on par with OS X is a stretch. Not that it's that far, but I've had many more stability issues with the LTS versions of Ubuntu than with Mavericks or even Yosemite. I agree, though, that sticking to Ubuntu or Fedora for new users is a great idea. They are both excellent operating systems with regard to simplicity.
  - zxcvcxz 11y ago
    >I've had many more stability issues with the LTS versions of Ubuntu than with Mavericks or even Yosemite. By any chance are you running OS X on Apple hardware? If we took OS X and installed it on an Ubuntu Certified Dell PC we may find that it has the stability issues, so if you are comparing it to OS X running on Apple hardware it's not a very fair comparison, as it's being run under ideal circumstances and Linux is not.
varlock 11y ago
I think it depends on how you live it. I remember that doing ./config failed, and I honestly had no clue in the beginning. So, while some friends of mine suggested that I abandon Linux and use Windows "because it works, and you don't have to waste your time" I decided to `waste` my time. So I googled, asked around, watched the masters, and most importantly, learned. I tried again, failed again, and faster, but not on the same pitfall. Always on something new. And in the process I increased my knowledge of the system, of the programming languages used, I learned how to patch the software, clever and not-so-clever tricks. The best part? I'm still failing, and I'm still learning. I'm not into OS-wars - I just loved what I did, still do, and I'd do it again a million time :)
sk8ingdom 11y ago
I have a 2014 MBP and it seems all I ever do is reboot the damn thing for updates. It would be nice if the "re-open my windows" actually respected workspaces...
odonnellryan 11y ago
You got downvoted, but you make a good point, if not slightly hostile. However, I think it's great that people have those tools for Linux. Sure, they might need to be configured sometimes, but most of the time they're something someone online thought they needed so they made it. It's a great community. However, while I have had to make lots of configuration changes with Linux (even if it's just adding API keys, changing some simple and documented display parameters, sand so on) I've never experienced stability problems with software. I mean, sure there exists bad software, but I've always had great stability on Linux.
TallGuyShort 11y ago
Yeah OSX will just magically solve all your problems, unless you live in reality. But seriously - I was at a customer site yesterday with some colleagues and Wifi wasn't working for any of the Mac users. They were all told to reboot and then it worked. OS X is an excellent system, but it's shit stinks like the rest of us.
- walshemj 11y ago
  OSX is defiantly a curates egg "good in parts" cough cough ntp :-)
WalterGR 11y ago
If you want an OSX which doesn't require reboots OSX is the answer. OSX requires a reboot after the weekly OS updates that each contain dozens upon dozens of security fixes. That OSX doesn't require reboots (and that it has a security track record that's better than Windows) is the Slashdot-esque 'inverse FUD' you realize you unconsciously bought into only after the fact.

agnivade 11y ago

Amazing feeling right ? Seriously, the way you describe it .. that's how people who truly love software should feel. Kudos !