5 ms·

Containers: Docker, Windows and Trends

91 points by runesoerensen 11y ago

shocks 11y ago
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vBD2z2A8NsgJ:azure.microsoft.com/blog/2015/08/17/containers-docker-windows-and-trends/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vBD2z2... I'm getting an error.
runesoerensen 11y ago
Considering the timing of this blog post, it's probably "warmup" for the release of Windows Server 2016 Technical Preview 3 (10.0.10514) expected later this week[1]. It also seems that MSFT made the new preview available for public download just a few hours ago[2], along with a new docker client[3]. A couple of PowerShell scripts for setting up container hosts were also uploaded earlier today[4] (which was where I found the VM and docker client links. Use at your own risk :-)) [1] http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-server-2016-build-1051x-coming-next-week http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-server-2016-build-1051x-... [2] http://download.microsoft.com/download/F/B/A/FBAAEE1A-3AF2-4ED7-8CD9-50FF91BA72B4/CBaseOs_th2_release_10514.0.150808-1529_amd64fre_ServerDatacenterCore_en-us.wim http://download.microsoft.com/download/F/B/A/FBAAEE1A-3AF2-4... [3] http://aka.ms/ContainerTools http://aka.ms/ContainerTools [4] https://github.com/Microsoft/Virtualization-Documentation/blob/master/windows-server-container-tools/New-ContainerHost/New-ContainerHost.ps1 https://github.com/Microsoft/Virtualization-Documentation/bl...
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
MichaelGG 11y ago
Well, over a decade late to this party, but seems like they're being dragged forward.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  Linux was pretty late to the party itself short of heavyweight solutions like Linux-VServer and OpenVZ which require patched kernels. As with most everything related to virtualization, IBM did it first.
  - dnm 11y ago
    I remember using VM/CMS in school, in 1981: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_%28operating_system%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_%28operating_system%29 How much is really new?
    - stephengillie 11y ago
      Everything new is old already.
  - MichaelGG 11y ago
    Sure. But ten years ago, people were using OpenVZ widely in hosting and so on. The benefits were very clear. Yet at that time period, Microsoft went in the opposite direction as they thought HDD space was growing without limit. (Vista introduced winsxs and other disk hungry features.)
- bmir-alum-007 11y ago
  They were ahead with App-V (Softricity, streamable apps which work offline in lieu of Citrix virtual desktop or Moka5 VMs), but the landscape on servers and VDI changed.
  - MichaelGG 11y ago
    Did that make it possible to deploy, say, IIS and DNS in separate containers, easily? I always saw it sorta aimed at end-user apps. Also note it's yet another licensing hurdle.
m0dest 11y ago
It sounds like: • Docker is really cool! Everyone is talking about Docker! • We at Microsoft like Docker, too! (But Docker obviously screws us pretty hard, since the whole ecosystem is built around the Linux kernel. Windows isn't great at this type of isolation.) • We don't like being left out of the Docker container party, so we're going to create _two_ things that are Almost As Good As Docker Containers! • (1) A new package format, "Windows Server Containers," that we're calling a container, even though it doesn't actually offer containment. Containers can mess with other containers. • (2) The same old Windows Server virtual machines, but we're going to call them "Hyper-V Containers." Yeah, they're just VMs. Separate kernels in memory and all of that. • We know neither of these offer what you wanted. But good news! You can use the same container format for _both_ of these new almost-a-container systems. Yikes.
- mkozlows 11y ago
  Being able to use Docker tools to deploy these Windows containers is a win, though. Companies with mixed data centers right now (aka many enterprises) are reluctant to use Docker-ecosystem tools for deployment because they won't work for Windows applications. If you can package up Windows apps in ways compatible with Docker orchestration tools, now it's a cross-platform tool that can work for the whole datacenter.
- sciurus 11y ago
  Your summary of #1 is uncharitable. Although we don't know the technical details of what Microsoft has actually implemented, their description of Window Server Containers applies equally well to containers on Linux. "While the sharing of the kernel enables fast start-up and efficient packing, Windows Server Containers share the OS with the host and each other. The amount of shared data and APIs means that there may be ways, whether by design or because of an implementation flaw in the namespace isolation or resource governance, for an application to escape out of its container or deny service to the host or other containers. Local elevation of privilege vulnerabilities that operating system vendors patch is an example of a flaw that an application could leverage. Thus, Windows Server Containers are great for scenarios where the OS trusts the applications that will be hosted on it, and all the applications also trust each other."
bmir-alum-007 11y ago
It's a good thing CloudVolumes (aka SnapVolumes, basically VM-side volume unioning for VDI and server app containers a-la Softricity) sold to VMware when they did about 2 years ago. The core idea of app executables and libraries as opaque, read-only containers which can be shared at the enterprise scale is a good abstraction for many reasons including security and dedupe.
moviuro 11y ago
What actually is the point of Microsoft helping docker? They tell that """Linux containers require Linux APIs from the host kernel and Windows Server Containers require the Windows APIs of a host Windows kernel, so you cannot run Linux containers on a Windows Server host or a Windows Server Container on a Linux host.""" So why help docker? can't they just create their docker-like software for Windows Containers? What is the point of sharing the same client if what you can do with it depends on the platform you use? EDIT: instead of just downvoting me, an explanation would be welcome
- Sanddancer 11y ago
  Because sharing the same client is still useful, even if they're different platforms. For example, being able to use the same application to control systems that run on Linux as well as Windows without needing to duplicate a lot of logic in a lot of places. Additionally, I can see cross-platform programs as potentially being possible through the right combination of well laid out containers, and usage of file associations/binfmt_misc in proper doses. So settling on the docker api does make sense for ms, because a balkanized server ecosystem just leads to frustration and people less interested in your platform.
ldaj 11y ago
What OS's will this docker.exe (3) work on? It does not run on Windows 10.

91 points by runesoerensen 11y ago

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vBD2z2A8NsgJ:azure.microsoft.com/blog/2015/08/17/containers-docker-windows-and-trends/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vBD2z2... I'm getting an error.

runesoerensen 11y ago

Considering the timing of this blog post, it's probably "warmup" for the release of Windows Server 2016 Technical Preview 3 (10.0.10514) expected later this week[1]. It also seems that MSFT made the new preview available for public download just a few hours ago[2], along with a new docker client[3]. A couple of PowerShell scripts for setting up container hosts were also uploaded earlier today[4] (which was where I found the VM and docker client links. Use at your own risk :-)) [1] http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-server-2016-build-1051x-coming-next-week http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-server-2016-build-1051x-... [2] http://download.microsoft.com/download/F/B/A/FBAAEE1A-3AF2-4ED7-8CD9-50FF91BA72B4/CBaseOs_th2_release_10514.0.150808-1529_amd64fre_ServerDatacenterCore_en-us.wim http://download.microsoft.com/download/F/B/A/FBAAEE1A-3AF2-4... [3] http://aka.ms/ContainerTools http://aka.ms/ContainerTools [4] https://github.com/Microsoft/Virtualization-Documentation/blob/master/windows-server-container-tools/New-ContainerHost/New-ContainerHost.ps1 https://github.com/Microsoft/Virtualization-Documentation/bl...

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

MichaelGG 11y ago

Well, over a decade late to this party, but seems like they're being dragged forward.

vezzy-fnord 11y ago
Linux was pretty late to the party itself short of heavyweight solutions like Linux-VServer and OpenVZ which require patched kernels. As with most everything related to virtualization, IBM did it first.
- dnm 11y ago
  I remember using VM/CMS in school, in 1981: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_%28operating_system%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_%28operating_system%29 How much is really new?
  - stephengillie 11y ago
    Everything new is old already.
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  Sure. But ten years ago, people were using OpenVZ widely in hosting and so on. The benefits were very clear. Yet at that time period, Microsoft went in the opposite direction as they thought HDD space was growing without limit. (Vista introduced winsxs and other disk hungry features.)
bmir-alum-007 11y ago
They were ahead with App-V (Softricity, streamable apps which work offline in lieu of Citrix virtual desktop or Moka5 VMs), but the landscape on servers and VDI changed.
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  Did that make it possible to deploy, say, IIS and DNS in separate containers, easily? I always saw it sorta aimed at end-user apps. Also note it's yet another licensing hurdle.

m0dest 11y ago

It sounds like: • Docker is really cool! Everyone is talking about Docker! • We at Microsoft like Docker, too! (But Docker obviously screws us pretty hard, since the whole ecosystem is built around the Linux kernel. Windows isn't great at this type of isolation.) • We don't like being left out of the Docker container party, so we're going to create _two_ things that are Almost As Good As Docker Containers! • (1) A new package format, "Windows Server Containers," that we're calling a container, even though it doesn't actually offer containment. Containers can mess with other containers. • (2) The same old Windows Server virtual machines, but we're going to call them "Hyper-V Containers." Yeah, they're just VMs. Separate kernels in memory and all of that. • We know neither of these offer what you wanted. But good news! You can use the same container format for _both_ of these new almost-a-container systems. Yikes.

mkozlows 11y ago
Being able to use Docker tools to deploy these Windows containers is a win, though. Companies with mixed data centers right now (aka many enterprises) are reluctant to use Docker-ecosystem tools for deployment because they won't work for Windows applications. If you can package up Windows apps in ways compatible with Docker orchestration tools, now it's a cross-platform tool that can work for the whole datacenter.
sciurus 11y ago
Your summary of #1 is uncharitable. Although we don't know the technical details of what Microsoft has actually implemented, their description of Window Server Containers applies equally well to containers on Linux. "While the sharing of the kernel enables fast start-up and efficient packing, Windows Server Containers share the OS with the host and each other. The amount of shared data and APIs means that there may be ways, whether by design or because of an implementation flaw in the namespace isolation or resource governance, for an application to escape out of its container or deny service to the host or other containers. Local elevation of privilege vulnerabilities that operating system vendors patch is an example of a flaw that an application could leverage. Thus, Windows Server Containers are great for scenarios where the OS trusts the applications that will be hosted on it, and all the applications also trust each other."

bmir-alum-007 11y ago

It's a good thing CloudVolumes (aka SnapVolumes, basically VM-side volume unioning for VDI and server app containers a-la Softricity) sold to VMware when they did about 2 years ago. The core idea of app executables and libraries as opaque, read-only containers which can be shared at the enterprise scale is a good abstraction for many reasons including security and dedupe.

moviuro 11y ago

What actually is the point of Microsoft helping docker? They tell that """Linux containers require Linux APIs from the host kernel and Windows Server Containers require the Windows APIs of a host Windows kernel, so you cannot run Linux containers on a Windows Server host or a Windows Server Container on a Linux host.""" So why help docker? can't they just create their docker-like software for Windows Containers? What is the point of sharing the same client if what you can do with it depends on the platform you use? EDIT: instead of just downvoting me, an explanation would be welcome

Sanddancer 11y ago
Because sharing the same client is still useful, even if they're different platforms. For example, being able to use the same application to control systems that run on Linux as well as Windows without needing to duplicate a lot of logic in a lot of places. Additionally, I can see cross-platform programs as potentially being possible through the right combination of well laid out containers, and usage of file associations/binfmt_misc in proper doses. So settling on the docker api does make sense for ms, because a balkanized server ecosystem just leads to frustration and people less interested in your platform.

ldaj 11y ago

What OS's will this docker.exe (3) work on? It does not run on Windows 10.