8 ms·

The Neuroscience of Drumming

75 points by hunglee2 11y ago

Cthulhu_ 11y ago
Bit of a chicken-and-egg problem there; are they different because they drum, or do they drum because they're different? Same can be postulated about software developers; do they think different because they work with programming languages, or vice-versa?
- jonwachob91 11y ago
  Not a chicken and egg problem, the evolution occurred during the egg lifecycle - thus the egg came first... But we all get your point ;)
- slfnflctd 11y ago
  A good question, the kind that should always be raised with these sorts of studies. On the anecdotal side, I've played music with a lot of people over the years, and have long suspected there is some sort of inborn talent spectrum for both rhythm and pitch discernment (somewhat separately from each other, too). Practicing a ton will make a difference, but it definitely appears that certain skills come much more easily for some people than others. Good drummers are actually pretty hard to find in my experience, and they tend to be in high demand.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - stef25 11y ago
    When I was a young kid I took up drum lessons and immediately became very good at it. On the exams I always had 90% or higher, other kids really looked up to me and I didn't really understand the big deal. Didn't practise much at all, was never nervous, didn't see my achievements as anything special. When taking lessons in a music school I also had to follow separate classes of music theory which I hated, so I wanted to quit. But my teacher desperately wanted me to continue and allowed me to follow his classes "unofficially". Then I started playing in bands and the other members were always really impressed. Again I didn't understand why. I'm at best mediocre at everything else I do: other musical instruments, being a developer, these kind of logical reasoning intelligence & maths tests. Don't really excel at anything at all but I always felt that playing drums was some kind of built in talent I had, so I believe there's a kind of person that's born with a real talent for rhythm.
- atom-morgan 11y ago
  Drummer here speaking. I would say it's like anything else. Drummers are different because they drum.
- JimiofEden 11y ago
  You do have to learn how to drum in the first place, and it's not something that's unachievable. So I'd argue it's because you drum. When I learned how to play in the first place, particularly with jazzy bands and all that, it honestly felt like the mental rigors of studying, since I was trying to incorporate rhythms, as well as breaking them, all while giving a steady heartbeat to the band playing with me. Learning different techniques, handling, sticking, getting to the point where hitting the drum head at the precise location for the precise sound needed was a lot of multitasking to keep in mind, while holding steady notes on a snare or a hi-hat. And the point was to practice all of this until it became second nature, and you didn't have to keep any of it in mind as you played. So it'd be more fair to say that drumming kinda rewrites the way you think and redirects certain aspects of your mental faculties.
- rprospero 11y ago
  Since there's a lot of drummers checking in on this one, I thought that I'd come in from the reverse side. Rhythm never made any sense to me. When we were supposed to clap to the beat of a song in music class, I usually just cheated off the kids next to me and tried to match my hands to their own. If that failed, I'd just clap every time the person in the song said a word. For children's music, that was usually close enough.
  - zo1 11y ago
    "If that failed, I'd just clap every time the person in the song said a word. For children's music, that was usually close enough." It's not just children's music. Most songs you find today, if you listen closely enough, the words follow the beat. I.e. every once in a while, a word starts on the "one" beat. And we take it for granted. You'll very quickly realize something is "off" if that's not the case. That's usually what you find in "artsy", "look at us we're weird and different" type of music. Annoying most times, and incredibly difficult to get right.
  - pbhjpbhj 11y ago
    I'm pretty arhythmic too, was about 14 before I learnt to skip - spent many humilating lessons at primary school when the teacher told us to skip (without a rope) and they didn't understand how I couldn't do it. I can't clap in time at all, nor dance (another point of childhood humilation). As it happens I took classical piano as a teenager, but always had trouble with the rhythm. When getting a medical exam for scuba there was a suggestion that I had an arhythmic heartbeat and I've always wondered if that could relate - perhaps my brain just can't do rhythm in any way at all ...
otis_inf 11y ago
"Could you come up with a counter-example to the hypothesis that drummers are actually natural intellectuals?" "Lars Ulrich" "..."
mkesper 11y ago
Where's the science? (Didn't have time to watch the videos though)
dbhattar 11y ago
I didn't see anything definitive in the article. Didn't go through the videos though. The takeaway seems to be if you can play music to the point of causing pain ('musician's high', may be), then your brain probably is different. Isn't that true for any field, musical or non-musical?
kailuowang 11y ago
I take MOOCs as a hobby. HavardX's fundamentals or neural science https://www.mcb80x.org/ https://www.mcb80x.org/ is probably the best produced MOOC I've ever seen.
jefurii 11y ago
As a bassist, I'm curious when neuroscientists will think about analyzing the brains of the rest of the rhythm section.
- Cshelton 11y ago
  In my years of jazz band on set, along with different rock groups....I love bassist <3. A good bassist allowed me to go crazy, and if I got off, I knew where to listen to be on...nobody else would even notice. That said, I think it would be pretty similar, the study should have said "anyone who thinks...in time".
- duderific 11y ago
  As a musician and drummer for many years... I am putting myself in the "natural rhythm" camp - I never struggled with keeping time, it came easily and I didn't have to work too hard. Now, actually learning to play a drum set, actually getting the limb separation down, took years and years of practice before I could feel really comfortable. As far as the rest of the rhythm section -- it's the same for any member of the band. You either have it, or you don't. I played with several bass players who didn't have it, and I felt like as the drummer I was working twice as hard as playing with a bass player that did "have it". I knew a bass player who practiced for hours with a metronome, and he could never play an upbeat in the right place. That's something that comes at an intuitive level.
- rrss1122 11y ago
  I share that curiosity. A band works best when the drummer and the bassist are "locked in". I have to imagine that if a neuroscientist were to image the brains of both the drummer and the bassist in a band with a really good rhythm section, their brains would "look" very similar.
Cshelton 11y ago
As a drummer for 15 years, including drumline at a competitive level, the head of a top university drumline, "drum cantain", and years of playing set in a band, I've observed a few things among different people. For the people that are trying to learn, it became very noticeable, some people can naturally drum, and some people simply...just can't. The divide is quite large in fact. A natural drummer could pick something up in 5 mins, while someone who 'can't' would take weeks to pick the same thing up. Then of course any iteration of that new thing, the natural would almost immediately get it, and again....the other would take the same amount of time. It's really like how the brain is wired. (I'm not a neuroscientists) Among people outside of the drumming world, you can notice people tapping all the time. At a concert of just to music playing. Some people I can tell right away, they would make a good drummer if they actually did it. They can stay in time to what they are listening too and it comes naturally. Others...well...rhythm just isn't going to happen for them. Put 10 people in a room with music playing to a steady beat, say 128 bpm. Now ask them all to clap to that beat. 99% of the time it will rush. Try it out. If there is someone who is "natural" at it, that person, or several of them, will separate from the group, and you get the flam, or out of sync, clapping sound. As for "smarter"... I don't know about that. I would say that many drummers I have known would easily be consider the best musicians in the band. Whether it be a rock band, jazz, or marching band.
- micromarty 11y ago
  As someone with a similar level of experience, you are dead on.
- icoder 11y ago
  Interesting. Given that divide, I've a hard time placing myself. I'm not a talented drummer, but to simply say I 'just can't' is something else. I've had lessons from 8-16, and played in a band until 21. I was able to pick up all the exercises, usually a bit easier than my classmates (perhaps I practiced more, although the 10 mins a day average was already a tough battle), but they were always better and more natural at picking up the rhythm of, and playing along with a music tape (CD later on ;). Now, a bit older, I can pick up the beat of most songs, even without drums, but I always fail to get that pa-pa-pa-pam in the Friends theme. I think if would write that one down, to see the rhythm on paper, I easily could, but au natural, non. I always thought I was untalented but 'learned' my way through it for as long as it could take me (helped by the fact that I am, in many areas, a fast learner). But that doesn't seem to match either of the sides of the divide you describe. Sidenote: I can by no means sing (even talk) and drum (or play guitar) at the same time, Not. At. All. I think that has something to do with wiring as well.
usefulcat 11y ago
"... the work of Terry Bozzio (below) playing the largest drumkit you’ve ever seen." Unless you've ever seen Neil Peart.
- codq 11y ago
  In it's largest incarnation, Terry Bozzio's drumkit absolutely dwarfed Peart's. http://i.imgur.com/W81F6XN.jpg http://i.imgur.com/W81F6XN.jpg
  - usefulcat 11y ago
    Agreed, but that's not the same set in the video the article refers to.
- rrss1122 11y ago
  Neil Peart and Geddy Lee, now THAT is a great rhythm section.
11thEarlOfMar 11y ago
Jaco Pastorius started as a drummer and then moved to bass. In that crossover, he held tightly to his initial drumming bent and incorporated rhythm into his playing, frequently playing off the drummer to add complexity to the music's rhythms. He also used a sequencer to sample his bass as the rhythm track for his solos. I am guessing it would have been fascinating to image his brain and compare it to both drummers and non-drumming musicians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3FAbGepa14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3FAbGepa14 (kicks in sequencer at 4:10)
benmarks 11y ago
Drumming is almost as sublimely infectious as yawning - try tapping a little rhythm around others and see how regularly others start tapping themselves.

75 points by hunglee2 11y ago

Bit of a chicken-and-egg problem there; are they different because they drum, or do they drum because they're different? Same can be postulated about software developers; do they think different because they work with programming languages, or vice-versa?

jonwachob91 11y ago
Not a chicken and egg problem, the evolution occurred during the egg lifecycle - thus the egg came first... But we all get your point ;)
slfnflctd 11y ago
A good question, the kind that should always be raised with these sorts of studies. On the anecdotal side, I've played music with a lot of people over the years, and have long suspected there is some sort of inborn talent spectrum for both rhythm and pitch discernment (somewhat separately from each other, too). Practicing a ton will make a difference, but it definitely appears that certain skills come much more easily for some people than others. Good drummers are actually pretty hard to find in my experience, and they tend to be in high demand.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- stef25 11y ago
  When I was a young kid I took up drum lessons and immediately became very good at it. On the exams I always had 90% or higher, other kids really looked up to me and I didn't really understand the big deal. Didn't practise much at all, was never nervous, didn't see my achievements as anything special. When taking lessons in a music school I also had to follow separate classes of music theory which I hated, so I wanted to quit. But my teacher desperately wanted me to continue and allowed me to follow his classes "unofficially". Then I started playing in bands and the other members were always really impressed. Again I didn't understand why. I'm at best mediocre at everything else I do: other musical instruments, being a developer, these kind of logical reasoning intelligence & maths tests. Don't really excel at anything at all but I always felt that playing drums was some kind of built in talent I had, so I believe there's a kind of person that's born with a real talent for rhythm.
atom-morgan 11y ago
Drummer here speaking. I would say it's like anything else. Drummers are different because they drum.
JimiofEden 11y ago
You do have to learn how to drum in the first place, and it's not something that's unachievable. So I'd argue it's because you drum. When I learned how to play in the first place, particularly with jazzy bands and all that, it honestly felt like the mental rigors of studying, since I was trying to incorporate rhythms, as well as breaking them, all while giving a steady heartbeat to the band playing with me. Learning different techniques, handling, sticking, getting to the point where hitting the drum head at the precise location for the precise sound needed was a lot of multitasking to keep in mind, while holding steady notes on a snare or a hi-hat. And the point was to practice all of this until it became second nature, and you didn't have to keep any of it in mind as you played. So it'd be more fair to say that drumming kinda rewrites the way you think and redirects certain aspects of your mental faculties.
rprospero 11y ago
Since there's a lot of drummers checking in on this one, I thought that I'd come in from the reverse side. Rhythm never made any sense to me. When we were supposed to clap to the beat of a song in music class, I usually just cheated off the kids next to me and tried to match my hands to their own. If that failed, I'd just clap every time the person in the song said a word. For children's music, that was usually close enough.
- zo1 11y ago
  "If that failed, I'd just clap every time the person in the song said a word. For children's music, that was usually close enough." It's not just children's music. Most songs you find today, if you listen closely enough, the words follow the beat. I.e. every once in a while, a word starts on the "one" beat. And we take it for granted. You'll very quickly realize something is "off" if that's not the case. That's usually what you find in "artsy", "look at us we're weird and different" type of music. Annoying most times, and incredibly difficult to get right.
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  I'm pretty arhythmic too, was about 14 before I learnt to skip - spent many humilating lessons at primary school when the teacher told us to skip (without a rope) and they didn't understand how I couldn't do it. I can't clap in time at all, nor dance (another point of childhood humilation). As it happens I took classical piano as a teenager, but always had trouble with the rhythm. When getting a medical exam for scuba there was a suggestion that I had an arhythmic heartbeat and I've always wondered if that could relate - perhaps my brain just can't do rhythm in any way at all ...

otis_inf 11y ago

"Could you come up with a counter-example to the hypothesis that drummers are actually natural intellectuals?" "Lars Ulrich" "..."

mkesper 11y ago

Where's the science? (Didn't have time to watch the videos though)

dbhattar 11y ago

I didn't see anything definitive in the article. Didn't go through the videos though. The takeaway seems to be if you can play music to the point of causing pain ('musician's high', may be), then your brain probably is different. Isn't that true for any field, musical or non-musical?

kailuowang 11y ago

I take MOOCs as a hobby. HavardX's fundamentals or neural science https://www.mcb80x.org/ https://www.mcb80x.org/ is probably the best produced MOOC I've ever seen.

jefurii 11y ago

As a bassist, I'm curious when neuroscientists will think about analyzing the brains of the rest of the rhythm section.

Cshelton 11y ago
In my years of jazz band on set, along with different rock groups....I love bassist <3. A good bassist allowed me to go crazy, and if I got off, I knew where to listen to be on...nobody else would even notice. That said, I think it would be pretty similar, the study should have said "anyone who thinks...in time".
duderific 11y ago
As a musician and drummer for many years... I am putting myself in the "natural rhythm" camp - I never struggled with keeping time, it came easily and I didn't have to work too hard. Now, actually learning to play a drum set, actually getting the limb separation down, took years and years of practice before I could feel really comfortable. As far as the rest of the rhythm section -- it's the same for any member of the band. You either have it, or you don't. I played with several bass players who didn't have it, and I felt like as the drummer I was working twice as hard as playing with a bass player that did "have it". I knew a bass player who practiced for hours with a metronome, and he could never play an upbeat in the right place. That's something that comes at an intuitive level.
rrss1122 11y ago
I share that curiosity. A band works best when the drummer and the bassist are "locked in". I have to imagine that if a neuroscientist were to image the brains of both the drummer and the bassist in a band with a really good rhythm section, their brains would "look" very similar.

Cshelton 11y ago

As a drummer for 15 years, including drumline at a competitive level, the head of a top university drumline, "drum cantain", and years of playing set in a band, I've observed a few things among different people. For the people that are trying to learn, it became very noticeable, some people can naturally drum, and some people simply...just can't. The divide is quite large in fact. A natural drummer could pick something up in 5 mins, while someone who 'can't' would take weeks to pick the same thing up. Then of course any iteration of that new thing, the natural would almost immediately get it, and again....the other would take the same amount of time. It's really like how the brain is wired. (I'm not a neuroscientists) Among people outside of the drumming world, you can notice people tapping all the time. At a concert of just to music playing. Some people I can tell right away, they would make a good drummer if they actually did it. They can stay in time to what they are listening too and it comes naturally. Others...well...rhythm just isn't going to happen for them. Put 10 people in a room with music playing to a steady beat, say 128 bpm. Now ask them all to clap to that beat. 99% of the time it will rush. Try it out. If there is someone who is "natural" at it, that person, or several of them, will separate from the group, and you get the flam, or out of sync, clapping sound. As for "smarter"... I don't know about that. I would say that many drummers I have known would easily be consider the best musicians in the band. Whether it be a rock band, jazz, or marching band.

micromarty 11y ago
As someone with a similar level of experience, you are dead on.
icoder 11y ago
Interesting. Given that divide, I've a hard time placing myself. I'm not a talented drummer, but to simply say I 'just can't' is something else. I've had lessons from 8-16, and played in a band until 21. I was able to pick up all the exercises, usually a bit easier than my classmates (perhaps I practiced more, although the 10 mins a day average was already a tough battle), but they were always better and more natural at picking up the rhythm of, and playing along with a music tape (CD later on ;). Now, a bit older, I can pick up the beat of most songs, even without drums, but I always fail to get that pa-pa-pa-pam in the Friends theme. I think if would write that one down, to see the rhythm on paper, I easily could, but au natural, non. I always thought I was untalented but 'learned' my way through it for as long as it could take me (helped by the fact that I am, in many areas, a fast learner). But that doesn't seem to match either of the sides of the divide you describe. Sidenote: I can by no means sing (even talk) and drum (or play guitar) at the same time, Not. At. All. I think that has something to do with wiring as well.

usefulcat 11y ago

"... the work of Terry Bozzio (below) playing the largest drumkit you’ve ever seen." Unless you've ever seen Neil Peart.

codq 11y ago
In it's largest incarnation, Terry Bozzio's drumkit absolutely dwarfed Peart's. http://i.imgur.com/W81F6XN.jpg http://i.imgur.com/W81F6XN.jpg
- usefulcat 11y ago
  Agreed, but that's not the same set in the video the article refers to.
rrss1122 11y ago
Neil Peart and Geddy Lee, now THAT is a great rhythm section.

11thEarlOfMar 11y ago

Jaco Pastorius started as a drummer and then moved to bass. In that crossover, he held tightly to his initial drumming bent and incorporated rhythm into his playing, frequently playing off the drummer to add complexity to the music's rhythms. He also used a sequencer to sample his bass as the rhythm track for his solos. I am guessing it would have been fascinating to image his brain and compare it to both drummers and non-drumming musicians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3FAbGepa14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3FAbGepa14 (kicks in sequencer at 4:10)

benmarks 11y ago

Drumming is almost as sublimely infectious as yawning - try tapping a little rhythm around others and see how regularly others start tapping themselves.