7 ms·

My friends and I were up late on a road trip once. We started to argue about how long it would take someone to die from lack of sleep. Initially, I held the po

My friends and I were up late on a road trip once. We started to argue about how long it would take someone to die from lack of sleep. Initially, I held the position that sleep was probably more important than eating food, and that you would die from sleep deprivation before you died from starvation. We looked it up, and learned about a disease called fatal familial insomnia. A mutated protein causes the onset of permanent insomnia, and there is no cure. It affects about 100 individuals worldwide. [1] The average life expectancy of a patient is 18 months after the onset of symptoms. The first 9 months is a worsening case of insomnia, where the patient will experience paranoia, panic attacks, and hallucinations. Sleeping pills and barbiturates have been shown to worsen the clinical manifestations and hasten the onset of the disease. The individual then becomes completely unable to sleep, and will enter a state of dementia before becoming completely mute and unresponsive. This second state of permanent insomnia lasts for 9 months. So ultimately, we learned that you can go for 9 months without sleeping before you die. I'm not sure at what point you'll suffer irreversible brain damage, but that was an interesting finding for me nonetheless. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_familial_insomnia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_familial_insomnia

jquery 11y ago
From the article: > Non REM Stages 1 and 2: Light sleep NREM-sleep > Non REM Stages 3 and 4: Deep slow wave sleep (SWS) > REM-sleep when dreams occur > FFI patients cannot go past stage 1 It appears they are getting sleep, but only stage 1 sleep. That might be what keeps them alive for 9 months. If stage 1 was blocked, I venture to guess their survival duration would be much lower.
- tim333 11y ago
  Here's some other research data. In Guamtanamo they kept prisoners awake 11 days and found "surprisingly, little seem[s] to go wrong with the subjects physically." In rat experiments they all died by 32 days. I'm guessing full sleep depravation in humans would have a similar result to rats though thankfully no one seems to have tried that. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/05/can_you_die_from_lack_of_sleep.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...
  - Panoramix 11y ago
    Not to veer off topic, but that's horrible and depressing.
    - WalterGR 11y ago
      Though I can't recall any specific examples, I've heard that the experiments carried out in Nazi Germany added significantly to the scientific literature about what happens to the human body under extreme conditions.
      - saiya-jin 11y ago
        ... and since scientific results obtained in any way are good enough, US and russians were very happy to get their hands on Nazi "research" done in concentration camps. It was basically slow torture to death usually caused by infections from really twisted experiments, ie sewing in "patient" hay and observing him die slowly over weeks, without helping. some would say once experiments were done and over, there isn't much that can be done to countless victims. albeit true, using these further gives some sort of approval on all of it (ie becessary evil BS).
  - stevoski 11y ago
    I'd guess (and hope) that the Guantanamo results were not based on scientifically rigorous research.
bluehazed 11y ago
That's horrible. It's always fun to find out new and more terrifying ways to die!
- chestervonwinch 11y ago
  getting off-topic, but here's one more for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibrodysplasia_ossificans_progressiva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibrodysplasia_ossificans_prog...
modfodder 11y ago
On a bit of a tangent, check out the novella Sleep Donation by Karen Russell. A short sci-fi tale about viral insomnia.
poizan42 11y ago
There's no way you really can tell how much of the effect is due to the sleep deprivation and how much is due to neuronal loss.
mratzloff 11y ago
It sounds like the brain is running something like a defragmentation routine every night. If it doesn't complete, your thoughts become more and more incoherent.
- paulkon 11y ago
  I don't think it's moving memories around. If you desire a very loose OS comparison, it may be cleaning up temp files.
  - mratzloff 11y ago
    It would be doing both. I was basing this comment on prior studies. For example: Sleep Lets Brain File Memories http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sleep-lets-brain-file-mem/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sleep-lets-brain-f...
- alfonsoperez 11y ago
  Once I had some strong personal issues and spent a full 6-7 days without getting any sleep. At that point I was convinced that my neighbors (Pakistani) were from IS, I even started an investigation (using some tactics you can guess) in order to find evidence and was already seeking political asylum in the US. Now I think about it and it's even funny, but hell.
  - chipsy 11y ago
    New hypothesis: The reason the U.S. leans conservative relative to other countries is lack of sleep.
    - sitkack 11y ago
      You might be able to track this down using public data.
- EC1 11y ago
  I stayed awake for two weeks once. After the first 8ish days you start hearing and seeing odd things. Really helps with music production. Ventured into soundscapes I'll never come back to.
sillysaurus3 11y ago
We looked it up, and learned about a disease called fatal familial insomnia. [...] You can go for 9 months without sleeping before you die. Debunked here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6568961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6568961 A small percentage of people with fatal familial insomnia don't experience insomnia, yet they still die. In other words, they die from the disease, not the insomnia.
- idlewords 11y ago
  The point of the parent comment is that you can go at least nine months without sleep and not die from it, not that lack of sleep is the cause of death in FFI.
twobits 11y ago
"So ultimately, we learned that you can go for 9 months without sleeping before you die" My "high score" is 3 days without sleeping. Think young, healthy, pretty physical, 1st year in university, while red alert 1 was hot. And I "kind of liked" red alert. Outcome: After that time, I layed on bed about noon, and woke up next day early afternoon. ~24+h later. Btw, I hadn't eaten the previous time. I managed to go to the uni restaurant with a friend, and there I semi collapsed, laying flat on 2 chairs, closed eyes, open mouth, slow breath. I was half a step from being rushed to the hospital, and one and a half steps from some serious life threatening situations. Didn't even have the energy to eat the food in front of me. What "saved" me, was that a concerned manager came, asked what's going on, and I asked for salted olive oils. He brought them in a hurry. I had barely enough energy to scrap the skin of the first one, and taste the juice. The first, took some time. And the second. After the third, I ate around 10 like there was no tomorrow. And then I had the energy to eat the food in front of me. So, basically, IMHMO, no way you can survive 9 months without sleeping.
- QuercusMax 11y ago
  What's a salted olive oil? (Genuinely curious.)
  - kibibu 11y ago
    I'm guessing these: http://www.amazon.com/Krinos-Olives-Italian-Style-Cured/dp/B00EENAYG4 http://www.amazon.com/Krinos-Olives-Italian-Style-Cured/dp/B...
  - twobits 11y ago
    I meant olives, with extra salt on top of them. Salt, to immediately kick you off, (with no real nutritious support), and olives, for their fat and iron, and nutrients to sustain and feed you. In this case they were greek, but I suppose that doesn't really matter.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- alanning 11y ago
usaphp 11y ago
There was even a world record set by Randy Gardner [1] who was awake for more than 10 days and he was monitored by a research institute. [1] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_(record_holder) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_(record_holder...
- beagle3 11y ago
  This is the latest recorded Guiness record, but most definitely not the longest recorded awakeness period: see [0] and [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_%28record_holder%29#Subsequent_record_information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_%28record_holder... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Wright_%28sleep_deprivation%29#Sleep_deprivation_record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Wright_%28sleep_deprivati...
adamwintle 11y ago
The subject of insomnia is very interesting to me. I don't even know if I'm medically an insomniac, I just know I've had sleep problems since I was about 19 years old. Sometimes my friends say I'm forgetful, but I usually put it down to being trolled because I am sure the event or whatever didn't happen. But I do wonder if I have a random "Alzheimer moment". It would be interesting to know if my sleeping problems were connected to my potential forgetfulness. A quick search on YouTube reveals some (somewhat old) videos on the topic of fatal familial insomnia https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fatal+familial+insomnia https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fatal+familial+... I thought this one was particularly good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co94aQDs3ek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co94aQDs3ek
- WalterGR 11y ago
  Sometimes my friends say I'm forgetful, but I usually put it down to being trolled because I am sure the event or whatever didn't happen. Obviously I don't know you or your friends but... at least in my personal social milieu - and those I've been witness to - this kind of "trolling" doesn't happen. Do you have sibling or other close relative or friend who remembers your life with more clarity than you do? If so, consider speaking with a medical professional. It would be interesting to know if my sleeping problems were connected to my potential forgetfulness. So, even if not, wouldn't hurt to have a conversation. They may not know shit about programming, but in my personal experience, they tend to know more than me about what's considered "normal."
saiya-jin 11y ago
no way you can go for 24-hour being completely awake for 9 months. you can fall into semi-sleep (weird states of trippy semi-consciousness, people daydreaming with open eyes etc.) that gives slight rest to tormented body and mind. Heck, if I cannot sleep, even laying down and closing eyes helps in resting, without sleeping. But if we're talking about healthy normal person who is forced not to sleep, my estimate is in 5-7 days he would die. Tried by military many times, used as torture tool not only during WWII (now they moved to water boarding)
stygiansonic 11y ago
There was a ST:TNG episode whose plot covered similar symptoms to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Terrors_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Terrors_(Star_Trek:_The_...

jquery 11y ago

From the article: > Non REM Stages 1 and 2: Light sleep NREM-sleep > Non REM Stages 3 and 4: Deep slow wave sleep (SWS) > REM-sleep when dreams occur > FFI patients cannot go past stage 1 It appears they are getting sleep, but only stage 1 sleep. That might be what keeps them alive for 9 months. If stage 1 was blocked, I venture to guess their survival duration would be much lower.

tim333 11y ago
Here's some other research data. In Guamtanamo they kept prisoners awake 11 days and found "surprisingly, little seem[s] to go wrong with the subjects physically." In rat experiments they all died by 32 days. I'm guessing full sleep depravation in humans would have a similar result to rats though thankfully no one seems to have tried that. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/05/can_you_die_from_lack_of_sleep.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...
- Panoramix 11y ago
  Not to veer off topic, but that's horrible and depressing.
  - WalterGR 11y ago
    Though I can't recall any specific examples, I've heard that the experiments carried out in Nazi Germany added significantly to the scientific literature about what happens to the human body under extreme conditions.
    - saiya-jin 11y ago
      ... and since scientific results obtained in any way are good enough, US and russians were very happy to get their hands on Nazi "research" done in concentration camps. It was basically slow torture to death usually caused by infections from really twisted experiments, ie sewing in "patient" hay and observing him die slowly over weeks, without helping. some would say once experiments were done and over, there isn't much that can be done to countless victims. albeit true, using these further gives some sort of approval on all of it (ie becessary evil BS).
- stevoski 11y ago
  I'd guess (and hope) that the Guantanamo results were not based on scientifically rigorous research.

bluehazed 11y ago

That's horrible. It's always fun to find out new and more terrifying ways to die!

chestervonwinch 11y ago
getting off-topic, but here's one more for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibrodysplasia_ossificans_progressiva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibrodysplasia_ossificans_prog...

modfodder 11y ago

On a bit of a tangent, check out the novella Sleep Donation by Karen Russell. A short sci-fi tale about viral insomnia.

poizan42 11y ago

There's no way you really can tell how much of the effect is due to the sleep deprivation and how much is due to neuronal loss.

mratzloff 11y ago

It sounds like the brain is running something like a defragmentation routine every night. If it doesn't complete, your thoughts become more and more incoherent.

paulkon 11y ago
I don't think it's moving memories around. If you desire a very loose OS comparison, it may be cleaning up temp files.
- mratzloff 11y ago
  It would be doing both. I was basing this comment on prior studies. For example: Sleep Lets Brain File Memories http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sleep-lets-brain-file-mem/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sleep-lets-brain-f...
alfonsoperez 11y ago
Once I had some strong personal issues and spent a full 6-7 days without getting any sleep. At that point I was convinced that my neighbors (Pakistani) were from IS, I even started an investigation (using some tactics you can guess) in order to find evidence and was already seeking political asylum in the US. Now I think about it and it's even funny, but hell.
- chipsy 11y ago
  New hypothesis: The reason the U.S. leans conservative relative to other countries is lack of sleep.
  - sitkack 11y ago
    You might be able to track this down using public data.
EC1 11y ago
I stayed awake for two weeks once. After the first 8ish days you start hearing and seeing odd things. Really helps with music production. Ventured into soundscapes I'll never come back to.

sillysaurus3 11y ago

We looked it up, and learned about a disease called fatal familial insomnia. [...] You can go for 9 months without sleeping before you die. Debunked here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6568961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6568961 A small percentage of people with fatal familial insomnia don't experience insomnia, yet they still die. In other words, they die from the disease, not the insomnia.

idlewords 11y ago
The point of the parent comment is that you can go at least nine months without sleep and not die from it, not that lack of sleep is the cause of death in FFI.

twobits 11y ago

"So ultimately, we learned that you can go for 9 months without sleeping before you die" My "high score" is 3 days without sleeping. Think young, healthy, pretty physical, 1st year in university, while red alert 1 was hot. And I "kind of liked" red alert. Outcome: After that time, I layed on bed about noon, and woke up next day early afternoon. ~24+h later. Btw, I hadn't eaten the previous time. I managed to go to the uni restaurant with a friend, and there I semi collapsed, laying flat on 2 chairs, closed eyes, open mouth, slow breath. I was half a step from being rushed to the hospital, and one and a half steps from some serious life threatening situations. Didn't even have the energy to eat the food in front of me. What "saved" me, was that a concerned manager came, asked what's going on, and I asked for salted olive oils. He brought them in a hurry. I had barely enough energy to scrap the skin of the first one, and taste the juice. The first, took some time. And the second. After the third, I ate around 10 like there was no tomorrow. And then I had the energy to eat the food in front of me. So, basically, IMHMO, no way you can survive 9 months without sleeping.

QuercusMax 11y ago
What's a salted olive oil? (Genuinely curious.)
- kibibu 11y ago
  I'm guessing these: http://www.amazon.com/Krinos-Olives-Italian-Style-Cured/dp/B00EENAYG4 http://www.amazon.com/Krinos-Olives-Italian-Style-Cured/dp/B...
- twobits 11y ago
  I meant olives, with extra salt on top of them. Salt, to immediately kick you off, (with no real nutritious support), and olives, for their fat and iron, and nutrients to sustain and feed you. In this case they were greek, but I suppose that doesn't really matter.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
alanning 11y ago

usaphp 11y ago

There was even a world record set by Randy Gardner [1] who was awake for more than 10 days and he was monitored by a research institute. [1] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_(record_holder) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_(record_holder...

beagle3 11y ago
This is the latest recorded Guiness record, but most definitely not the longest recorded awakeness period: see [0] and [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_%28record_holder%29#Subsequent_record_information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randy_Gardner_%28record_holder... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Wright_%28sleep_deprivation%29#Sleep_deprivation_record https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Wright_%28sleep_deprivati...

adamwintle 11y ago

The subject of insomnia is very interesting to me. I don't even know if I'm medically an insomniac, I just know I've had sleep problems since I was about 19 years old. Sometimes my friends say I'm forgetful, but I usually put it down to being trolled because I am sure the event or whatever didn't happen. But I do wonder if I have a random "Alzheimer moment". It would be interesting to know if my sleeping problems were connected to my potential forgetfulness. A quick search on YouTube reveals some (somewhat old) videos on the topic of fatal familial insomnia https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fatal+familial+insomnia https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fatal+familial+... I thought this one was particularly good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co94aQDs3ek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co94aQDs3ek

WalterGR 11y ago
Sometimes my friends say I'm forgetful, but I usually put it down to being trolled because I am sure the event or whatever didn't happen. Obviously I don't know you or your friends but... at least in my personal social milieu - and those I've been witness to - this kind of "trolling" doesn't happen. Do you have sibling or other close relative or friend who remembers your life with more clarity than you do? If so, consider speaking with a medical professional. It would be interesting to know if my sleeping problems were connected to my potential forgetfulness. So, even if not, wouldn't hurt to have a conversation. They may not know shit about programming, but in my personal experience, they tend to know more than me about what's considered "normal."

saiya-jin 11y ago

no way you can go for 24-hour being completely awake for 9 months. you can fall into semi-sleep (weird states of trippy semi-consciousness, people daydreaming with open eyes etc.) that gives slight rest to tormented body and mind. Heck, if I cannot sleep, even laying down and closing eyes helps in resting, without sleeping. But if we're talking about healthy normal person who is forced not to sleep, my estimate is in 5-7 days he would die. Tried by military many times, used as torture tool not only during WWII (now they moved to water boarding)

stygiansonic 11y ago

There was a ST:TNG episode whose plot covered similar symptoms to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Terrors_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Terrors_(Star_Trek:_The_...