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To be precise it's not only our ID cards that we like to microwave but above all our passports. The reason is that 2005 a new generation of passports was intro

To be precise it's not only our ID cards that we like to microwave but above all our passports. The reason is that 2005 a new generation of passports was introduced, which contain RFID chips that can be read out wirelessly over a distance of a few centimeter (or in some cases even a few meters). In the beginning, these chips only contained a digital version of the information on the passport, i.e. the name, passport ID and photo. However, since 2007 the chips also contain the digitized fingerprints of the passport holder. Various organizations such as the Chaos Computer Club showed how easy it was to access that information and demonstrated that such access could even be done unknowingly to the passport owner, e.g. when walking by a (hidden) reading device with your passport in your pocket. So, quite a nightmare from a privacy perspective. Back to the microwaving: While it is required to have a valid traveling passport if you wanna go abroad (i.e. outside the EU), it is NOT (yet) required to have a passport with a working RFID chip. Simply putting your passport into your microwave oven for a few seconds will irreversibly destroy the RFID chip while leaving the passport intact => Privacy problem solved :) So the next time someone tells you that Germans are not very pragmatic or too obedient just tell them that we are microwaving our passports ;) (I edited the first line to reflect the fact that they primarily talk about ID cards in the article, thanks to _more_original for pointing this out)

more_original 11y ago
> To be precise it's not our ID cards that we like to microwave but our (travel) passports. No, this article is about ID cards. The new ID cards, introduced a few years ago, also have RFID chips. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_identity_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_identity_card
- ThePhysicist 11y ago
  I think they might have gotten it wrong in the article, since travel passports are a much bigger problem than ID cards (which also contain RFID chips), because the former contain more sensitive information. In particular, storing fingerprint information is optional (i.e. decidable by the card holder) for the ID card but mandatory for the travel passport.
- sancha_ 11y ago
  Don't know if he changed his comment, but your cite is missing the word 'only'.
  - ThePhysicist 11y ago
    yeah I edited it.
ThePhysicist 11y ago
Concerning the legality of destroying the RFID chip: The article mentions that one person was arrested in Frankfurt airport when officials detected that he had microwaved his passport (or ID card), and that he would possibly be facing jail time for tampering with official travel documents. In my legal opinion, while your passport is property of the Federal Republic of Germany and thus not yours to do with as you please, it is a big difference if you willingly try to alter the information on the passport, or if you destroy part of the digital information in the passport. While the former might be considered a crime it is hard to imagine that the latter would be punishable by more than a small fine.
- masklinn 11y ago
  User dao- notes that the original source[0] says they weren't arrested, only provided with a temporary replacement and their damaged id confiscated. [0] http://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/mann-erhitzt-personalausweis-in-mikrowelle-13747024.html http://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/mann-erhitzt-personala...
matthewmacleod 11y ago
Simply putting your passport into your microwave oven for a few seconds will irreversibly destroy the RFID chip while leaving the passport intact => Privacy problem solved Don't passports remain the property of the issuing state in most cases? I'd be concerned that deliberately altering it and attempting to travel could be a legal problem.
- ThePhysicist 11y ago
  Yes that's indeed true, see my comment above.
leni536 11y ago
What is the effectiveness of RFID shields? Tampering with the passport is really a nono.
- ThePhysicist 11y ago
  That's also an option and there are some commercial providers, e.g. this one: http://www.pointprotect.de/ http://www.pointprotect.de/
- dagw 11y ago
  There's an old, but fairly comprehensive, consumer report article from 2011 that concludes: "When Recursion’s security experts tested 10 types of shields and wallets currently being sold to protect contactless cards, they found that none blocked the signal completely, and there was dramatic variability even among samples of the same brand." I don't know if the situation has improved much since then.
  - maze-le 11y ago
    > they found that none blocked the signal completely You can not block ths signal completeley. It is just the nature of radio wave that some small amplitude will get past the barrier, but you can lower the signal-amplitude so much, that the signal is worthless and a passive rfid chip will never respond. Alas, with a very strong sender, you might get through, but that is more a theoretical possibility or for the truly paranoid.
- richmarr 11y ago
  To be fair, allowing the arbitrary and (practically) undetectable leaking of fingerprints is also a no-no.
  - leni536 11y ago
    I think you leave your fingerprint at more places than your passport number anyway.
    - 11y ago
jacquesm 11y ago
Alternative solution to the finger print problem: http://jacquesmattheij.com/the-belt-sander-and-the-battle-for-privacy-a-body-hack http://jacquesmattheij.com/the-belt-sander-and-the-battle-fo... That way you don't have to nuke your passport, it simply makes sure there are no prints on it in the first place and for a bonus it also makes sure that the local municipality (which wouldn't know a database breach if they were hit over the head with it) doesn't have them.
- hyperdunc 11y ago
  Is the idea to temporarily remove the prints just before applying for ID or is the process more permanent?
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    Just before. It takes a few weeks to months before they grow back identical to what they were before.
    - TheLoneWolfling 11y ago
      Note that there are ways to remove fingerprints entirely. Nasty ones, mind you.

more_original 11y ago

> To be precise it's not our ID cards that we like to microwave but our (travel) passports. No, this article is about ID cards. The new ID cards, introduced a few years ago, also have RFID chips. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_identity_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_identity_card

ThePhysicist 11y ago
I think they might have gotten it wrong in the article, since travel passports are a much bigger problem than ID cards (which also contain RFID chips), because the former contain more sensitive information. In particular, storing fingerprint information is optional (i.e. decidable by the card holder) for the ID card but mandatory for the travel passport.
sancha_ 11y ago
Don't know if he changed his comment, but your cite is missing the word 'only'.
- ThePhysicist 11y ago
  yeah I edited it.

ThePhysicist 11y ago

Concerning the legality of destroying the RFID chip: The article mentions that one person was arrested in Frankfurt airport when officials detected that he had microwaved his passport (or ID card), and that he would possibly be facing jail time for tampering with official travel documents. In my legal opinion, while your passport is property of the Federal Republic of Germany and thus not yours to do with as you please, it is a big difference if you willingly try to alter the information on the passport, or if you destroy part of the digital information in the passport. While the former might be considered a crime it is hard to imagine that the latter would be punishable by more than a small fine.

masklinn 11y ago
User dao- notes that the original source[0] says they weren't arrested, only provided with a temporary replacement and their damaged id confiscated. [0] http://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/mann-erhitzt-personalausweis-in-mikrowelle-13747024.html http://www.faz.net/aktuell/rhein-main/mann-erhitzt-personala...

matthewmacleod 11y ago

Simply putting your passport into your microwave oven for a few seconds will irreversibly destroy the RFID chip while leaving the passport intact => Privacy problem solved Don't passports remain the property of the issuing state in most cases? I'd be concerned that deliberately altering it and attempting to travel could be a legal problem.

ThePhysicist 11y ago
Yes that's indeed true, see my comment above.

leni536 11y ago

What is the effectiveness of RFID shields? Tampering with the passport is really a nono.

ThePhysicist 11y ago
That's also an option and there are some commercial providers, e.g. this one: http://www.pointprotect.de/ http://www.pointprotect.de/
dagw 11y ago
There's an old, but fairly comprehensive, consumer report article from 2011 that concludes: "When Recursion’s security experts tested 10 types of shields and wallets currently being sold to protect contactless cards, they found that none blocked the signal completely, and there was dramatic variability even among samples of the same brand." I don't know if the situation has improved much since then.
- maze-le 11y ago
  > they found that none blocked the signal completely You can not block ths signal completeley. It is just the nature of radio wave that some small amplitude will get past the barrier, but you can lower the signal-amplitude so much, that the signal is worthless and a passive rfid chip will never respond. Alas, with a very strong sender, you might get through, but that is more a theoretical possibility or for the truly paranoid.
richmarr 11y ago
To be fair, allowing the arbitrary and (practically) undetectable leaking of fingerprints is also a no-no.
- leni536 11y ago
  I think you leave your fingerprint at more places than your passport number anyway.
  - 11y ago

jacquesm 11y ago

Alternative solution to the finger print problem: http://jacquesmattheij.com/the-belt-sander-and-the-battle-for-privacy-a-body-hack http://jacquesmattheij.com/the-belt-sander-and-the-battle-fo... That way you don't have to nuke your passport, it simply makes sure there are no prints on it in the first place and for a bonus it also makes sure that the local municipality (which wouldn't know a database breach if they were hit over the head with it) doesn't have them.

hyperdunc 11y ago
Is the idea to temporarily remove the prints just before applying for ID or is the process more permanent?
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Just before. It takes a few weeks to months before they grow back identical to what they were before.
  - TheLoneWolfling 11y ago
    Note that there are ways to remove fingerprints entirely. Nasty ones, mind you.