5 ms·

Even with rents of $4000 a month, $250k is a fantastic salary. The median average family income in NYC, btw, is $50,000, and the average rent is similar to SF.

by cm2012 11y ago

pavlov 11y ago
Yes. Many of the comments here speak of a growing disconnect between the elite engineer class and the regular people. This can be dangerous to our profession over time. $250k / year will only support a "decent single-guy lifestyle"? That's just insane anywhere in the world (except maybe if your last name happens to be Al Saud). For comparison, that is significantly above the average salary of a European prime minister. German Chancellor Angela Merkel makes slightly more than $250k / year.
- eropple 11y ago
  No kidding. I basically quit working and just consult part-time (in Boston, itself not exactly cheap) because I can live comfortably as a single guy for part-time rates. I'm as guilty of chasing the "high score" at times in my career, but to pretend that it's necessary is just...gross.
- timr 11y ago
  There is a disconnect: between people in SF, and people in most of the country who are paying less than a quarter of what SF residents pay for housing. That's a big deal. Stop looking at the top-line number and exaggerating the lifestyle in your head. The costs here are insane. Someone earning $250k here is probably doing about as well, financially, as an engineer earning market-rate in any other part of the country.
timr 11y ago
$4k a month is 20% of gross at $250,000 a year. That's acceptable, but not great, and it gets you a modestly nice one-bedroom apartment in a "transitional" neighborhood in SF. But hey, if your baseline for "fantastic" is the family in NYC that can barely afford housing, then have at it.
- serge2k 11y ago
  250000 a year gets you just under 12k per month after tax. Even paying 4k for a decent home still gives you 8k a month for other things. Thats fantastic.
- Spooky23 11y ago
  You're in denial. 4k a month gets you a very nice place in the NY metro area. NYC also has a functional transit infrastructure. My cousin makes around $250k, commutes a little less than an hour by train, and owns a home that is essentially a mini-estate. SFO is a gold rush town, but the model isn't sustainable. A shit-ton of semiconductor research has moved to save $$$ to Albany, NY of all places.
- cm2012 11y ago
  6x what the median family income is should be called fantastic, yes. It's literally in the top 2%, even in SF/NYC.
- seattle_spring 11y ago
  sigh No wonder all of my friends think most engineers are arrogant and out of touch with the rest of humanity.
  - timr 11y ago
    You're missing the point: in a city where a cup of coffee costs at least $3 and a small condo runs close to a million dollars, the numbers I'm talking about aren't arrogant, they're just life. The top-end engineer salary of $160k doesn't go very far here, right now. I'm sure that the distance it goes feels like a lot when you're 23 and one foot out of the dorm room, but when you get older and start wanting to have an adult life (children, saving for retirement, maybe buying a place), it isn't even remotely enough. $250k, in San Francisco, will rent you a market-rate, one-bedroom apartment ($4k, until they raise the rent next year), and let you live a pretty good lifestyle as a single person: you'll have something like $10k per month after taxes. If you're frugal, and don't go out much, you can get by on maybe $2k a month in expenses. That leaves $8k to save, invest, spend on children, etc. We aren't talking about big, glamorous lifestyles here.
claesbergryn 11y ago
San Francisco rents are worse. Five years ago, SF was a better deal. Also, if you're a decent programmer in NYC, you'll make 20% more than your counterpart in SF. The downside is that NYC finance jobs don't involve equity packages. The upside is that there are bonuses (wildly variable) and there's much more of a career track. Finance companies care more about their peoples' careers than Bay Area tech companies, and that's a big part of why the techies end up answering to finance in the end.

Even with rents of $4000 a month, $250k is a fantastic salary. The median average family income in NYC, btw, is $50,000, and the average rent is similar to SF.

by cm2012 11y ago

Even with rents of $4000 a month, $250k is a fantastic salary. The median average family income in NYC, btw, is $50,000, and the average rent is similar to SF.

pavlov 11y ago

Yes. Many of the comments here speak of a growing disconnect between the elite engineer class and the regular people. This can be dangerous to our profession over time. $250k / year will only support a "decent single-guy lifestyle"? That's just insane anywhere in the world (except maybe if your last name happens to be Al Saud). For comparison, that is significantly above the average salary of a European prime minister. German Chancellor Angela Merkel makes slightly more than $250k / year.

eropple 11y ago
No kidding. I basically quit working and just consult part-time (in Boston, itself not exactly cheap) because I can live comfortably as a single guy for part-time rates. I'm as guilty of chasing the "high score" at times in my career, but to pretend that it's necessary is just...gross.
timr 11y ago
There is a disconnect: between people in SF, and people in most of the country who are paying less than a quarter of what SF residents pay for housing. That's a big deal. Stop looking at the top-line number and exaggerating the lifestyle in your head. The costs here are insane. Someone earning $250k here is probably doing about as well, financially, as an engineer earning market-rate in any other part of the country.

timr 11y ago

$4k a month is 20% of gross at $250,000 a year. That's acceptable, but not great, and it gets you a modestly nice one-bedroom apartment in a "transitional" neighborhood in SF. But hey, if your baseline for "fantastic" is the family in NYC that can barely afford housing, then have at it.

serge2k 11y ago
250000 a year gets you just under 12k per month after tax. Even paying 4k for a decent home still gives you 8k a month for other things. Thats fantastic.
Spooky23 11y ago
You're in denial. 4k a month gets you a very nice place in the NY metro area. NYC also has a functional transit infrastructure. My cousin makes around $250k, commutes a little less than an hour by train, and owns a home that is essentially a mini-estate. SFO is a gold rush town, but the model isn't sustainable. A shit-ton of semiconductor research has moved to save $$$ to Albany, NY of all places.
cm2012 11y ago
6x what the median family income is should be called fantastic, yes. It's literally in the top 2%, even in SF/NYC.
seattle_spring 11y ago
sigh No wonder all of my friends think most engineers are arrogant and out of touch with the rest of humanity.
- timr 11y ago
  You're missing the point: in a city where a cup of coffee costs at least $3 and a small condo runs close to a million dollars, the numbers I'm talking about aren't arrogant, they're just life. The top-end engineer salary of $160k doesn't go very far here, right now. I'm sure that the distance it goes feels like a lot when you're 23 and one foot out of the dorm room, but when you get older and start wanting to have an adult life (children, saving for retirement, maybe buying a place), it isn't even remotely enough. $250k, in San Francisco, will rent you a market-rate, one-bedroom apartment ($4k, until they raise the rent next year), and let you live a pretty good lifestyle as a single person: you'll have something like $10k per month after taxes. If you're frugal, and don't go out much, you can get by on maybe $2k a month in expenses. That leaves $8k to save, invest, spend on children, etc. We aren't talking about big, glamorous lifestyles here.

claesbergryn 11y ago

San Francisco rents are worse. Five years ago, SF was a better deal. Also, if you're a decent programmer in NYC, you'll make 20% more than your counterpart in SF. The downside is that NYC finance jobs don't involve equity packages. The upside is that there are bonuses (wildly variable) and there's much more of a career track. Finance companies care more about their peoples' careers than Bay Area tech companies, and that's a big part of why the techies end up answering to finance in the end.