10 ms·

What's unspoken is that their list is probably all startups. If you work at established companies, or late stage startups, the total equity package is going to

What's unspoken is that their list is probably all startups. If you work at established companies, or late stage startups, the total equity package is going to be higher. That is, I'm pretty sure that if you work for Uber, Twitter, FB, Netflix, etc, you will be making well north of 200k+ a year if you are senior+.

eropple 11y ago
Just one data point, but when I spoke most recently to one of the companies on your list, I was quoted $170 for a lead software engineer role, "but only in our [Bay Area] office". Big companies don't want to tilt the market against them, either.
- icelancer 11y ago
  I received a similar offer from one of the companies on the list to work in Data Science, which was quoted as a senior-level role.
timr 11y ago
I think you're right that it's mostly startups, but that's also the job market in SF right now. They far outnumber the established companies. Also, from what I know of (fairly experienced) friends and acquaintances working at larger companies in the bay area, the financial trade-off is still pretty sketchy. A salary of $250k a year will support you well in a decent single-guy lifestyle, but it won't go much further than that.
- cm2012 11y ago
  Even with rents of $4000 a month, $250k is a fantastic salary. The median average family income in NYC, btw, is $50,000, and the average rent is similar to SF.
  - pavlov 11y ago
    Yes. Many of the comments here speak of a growing disconnect between the elite engineer class and the regular people. This can be dangerous to our profession over time. $250k / year will only support a "decent single-guy lifestyle"? That's just insane anywhere in the world (except maybe if your last name happens to be Al Saud). For comparison, that is significantly above the average salary of a European prime minister. German Chancellor Angela Merkel makes slightly more than $250k / year.
    - eropple 11y ago
      No kidding. I basically quit working and just consult part-time (in Boston, itself not exactly cheap) because I can live comfortably as a single guy for part-time rates. I'm as guilty of chasing the "high score" at times in my career, but to pretend that it's necessary is just...gross.
    - timr 11y ago
      There is a disconnect: between people in SF, and people in most of the country who are paying less than a quarter of what SF residents pay for housing. That's a big deal. Stop looking at the top-line number and exaggerating the lifestyle in your head. The costs here are insane. Someone earning $250k here is probably doing about as well, financially, as an engineer earning market-rate in any other part of the country.
  - timr 11y ago
    $4k a month is 20% of gross at $250,000 a year. That's acceptable, but not great, and it gets you a modestly nice one-bedroom apartment in a "transitional" neighborhood in SF. But hey, if your baseline for "fantastic" is the family in NYC that can barely afford housing, then have at it.
    - serge2k 11y ago
      250000 a year gets you just under 12k per month after tax. Even paying 4k for a decent home still gives you 8k a month for other things. Thats fantastic.
    - Spooky23 11y ago
      You're in denial. 4k a month gets you a very nice place in the NY metro area. NYC also has a functional transit infrastructure. My cousin makes around $250k, commutes a little less than an hour by train, and owns a home that is essentially a mini-estate. SFO is a gold rush town, but the model isn't sustainable. A shit-ton of semiconductor research has moved to save $$$ to Albany, NY of all places.
    - cm2012 11y ago
      6x what the median family income is should be called fantastic, yes. It's literally in the top 2%, even in SF/NYC.
    - seattle_spring 11y ago
      sigh No wonder all of my friends think most engineers are arrogant and out of touch with the rest of humanity.
      - timr 11y ago
        You're missing the point: in a city where a cup of coffee costs at least $3 and a small condo runs close to a million dollars, the numbers I'm talking about aren't arrogant, they're just life. The top-end engineer salary of $160k doesn't go very far here, right now. I'm sure that the distance it goes feels like a lot when you're 23 and one foot out of the dorm room, but when you get older and start wanting to have an adult life (children, saving for retirement, maybe buying a place), it isn't even remotely enough. $250k, in San Francisco, will rent you a market-rate, one-bedroom apartment ($4k, until they raise the rent next year), and let you live a pretty good lifestyle as a single person: you'll have something like $10k per month after taxes. If you're frugal, and don't go out much, you can get by on maybe $2k a month in expenses. That leaves $8k to save, invest, spend on children, etc. We aren't talking about big, glamorous lifestyles here.
  - claesbergryn 11y ago
    San Francisco rents are worse. Five years ago, SF was a better deal. Also, if you're a decent programmer in NYC, you'll make 20% more than your counterpart in SF. The downside is that NYC finance jobs don't involve equity packages. The upside is that there are bonuses (wildly variable) and there's much more of a career track. Finance companies care more about their peoples' careers than Bay Area tech companies, and that's a big part of why the techies end up answering to finance in the end.
ryandrake 11y ago
This comes up time and time again on HN. Due to the demographic here, everyone seems to know at least SOMEONE who makes $200K+, but there's no evidence that these compensation packages are anything but outliers (even including equity), no matter the age/vintage of company.
- sjg007 11y ago
  I thought Netflix was the outlier company.. but then again it is only ~500 engineers or so..
- usaar333 11y ago
  There's plenty of evidence. Just look at glassdoor: Google senior eng total comp is $252k annually: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Senior-Software-Engineer-San-Jose-Salaries-EJI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,31_IL.32,40_IM761.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Senior-Software-Engin... Google Staff engineer is $350k annually with base salary over $200k: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Staff-Software-Engineer-San-Jose-Salaries-EJI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,30_IL.31,39_IM761.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Staff-Software-Engine...
  - ryandrake 11y ago
    Outlier employees of an outlier company Editing my curt response: The original poster asserted that he/she was "pretty sure" that if you work for [established companies], you "will" be making well north of 200k+, as if it was a certainty or at least a high probability. I don't deny that some outlier companies have some outlier employees that make that much, I'm just questioning the claim that it's usual to make that in these companies.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]

eropple 11y ago

Just one data point, but when I spoke most recently to one of the companies on your list, I was quoted $170 for a lead software engineer role, "but only in our [Bay Area] office". Big companies don't want to tilt the market against them, either.

icelancer 11y ago
I received a similar offer from one of the companies on the list to work in Data Science, which was quoted as a senior-level role.

timr 11y ago

I think you're right that it's mostly startups, but that's also the job market in SF right now. They far outnumber the established companies. Also, from what I know of (fairly experienced) friends and acquaintances working at larger companies in the bay area, the financial trade-off is still pretty sketchy. A salary of $250k a year will support you well in a decent single-guy lifestyle, but it won't go much further than that.

cm2012 11y ago
Even with rents of $4000 a month, $250k is a fantastic salary. The median average family income in NYC, btw, is $50,000, and the average rent is similar to SF.
- pavlov 11y ago
  Yes. Many of the comments here speak of a growing disconnect between the elite engineer class and the regular people. This can be dangerous to our profession over time. $250k / year will only support a "decent single-guy lifestyle"? That's just insane anywhere in the world (except maybe if your last name happens to be Al Saud). For comparison, that is significantly above the average salary of a European prime minister. German Chancellor Angela Merkel makes slightly more than $250k / year.
  - eropple 11y ago
    No kidding. I basically quit working and just consult part-time (in Boston, itself not exactly cheap) because I can live comfortably as a single guy for part-time rates. I'm as guilty of chasing the "high score" at times in my career, but to pretend that it's necessary is just...gross.
  - timr 11y ago
    There is a disconnect: between people in SF, and people in most of the country who are paying less than a quarter of what SF residents pay for housing. That's a big deal. Stop looking at the top-line number and exaggerating the lifestyle in your head. The costs here are insane. Someone earning $250k here is probably doing about as well, financially, as an engineer earning market-rate in any other part of the country.
- timr 11y ago
  $4k a month is 20% of gross at $250,000 a year. That's acceptable, but not great, and it gets you a modestly nice one-bedroom apartment in a "transitional" neighborhood in SF. But hey, if your baseline for "fantastic" is the family in NYC that can barely afford housing, then have at it.
  - serge2k 11y ago
    250000 a year gets you just under 12k per month after tax. Even paying 4k for a decent home still gives you 8k a month for other things. Thats fantastic.
  - Spooky23 11y ago
    You're in denial. 4k a month gets you a very nice place in the NY metro area. NYC also has a functional transit infrastructure. My cousin makes around $250k, commutes a little less than an hour by train, and owns a home that is essentially a mini-estate. SFO is a gold rush town, but the model isn't sustainable. A shit-ton of semiconductor research has moved to save $$$ to Albany, NY of all places.
  - cm2012 11y ago
    6x what the median family income is should be called fantastic, yes. It's literally in the top 2%, even in SF/NYC.
  - seattle_spring 11y ago
    sigh No wonder all of my friends think most engineers are arrogant and out of touch with the rest of humanity.
    - timr 11y ago
      You're missing the point: in a city where a cup of coffee costs at least $3 and a small condo runs close to a million dollars, the numbers I'm talking about aren't arrogant, they're just life. The top-end engineer salary of $160k doesn't go very far here, right now. I'm sure that the distance it goes feels like a lot when you're 23 and one foot out of the dorm room, but when you get older and start wanting to have an adult life (children, saving for retirement, maybe buying a place), it isn't even remotely enough. $250k, in San Francisco, will rent you a market-rate, one-bedroom apartment ($4k, until they raise the rent next year), and let you live a pretty good lifestyle as a single person: you'll have something like $10k per month after taxes. If you're frugal, and don't go out much, you can get by on maybe $2k a month in expenses. That leaves $8k to save, invest, spend on children, etc. We aren't talking about big, glamorous lifestyles here.
- claesbergryn 11y ago
  San Francisco rents are worse. Five years ago, SF was a better deal. Also, if you're a decent programmer in NYC, you'll make 20% more than your counterpart in SF. The downside is that NYC finance jobs don't involve equity packages. The upside is that there are bonuses (wildly variable) and there's much more of a career track. Finance companies care more about their peoples' careers than Bay Area tech companies, and that's a big part of why the techies end up answering to finance in the end.

ryandrake 11y ago

This comes up time and time again on HN. Due to the demographic here, everyone seems to know at least SOMEONE who makes $200K+, but there's no evidence that these compensation packages are anything but outliers (even including equity), no matter the age/vintage of company.

sjg007 11y ago
I thought Netflix was the outlier company.. but then again it is only ~500 engineers or so..
usaar333 11y ago
There's plenty of evidence. Just look at glassdoor: Google senior eng total comp is $252k annually: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Senior-Software-Engineer-San-Jose-Salaries-EJI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,31_IL.32,40_IM761.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Senior-Software-Engin... Google Staff engineer is $350k annually with base salary over $200k: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Staff-Software-Engineer-San-Jose-Salaries-EJI_IE9079.0,6_KO7,30_IL.31,39_IM761.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Staff-Software-Engine...
- ryandrake 11y ago
  Outlier employees of an outlier company Editing my curt response: The original poster asserted that he/she was "pretty sure" that if you work for [established companies], you "will" be making well north of 200k+, as if it was a certainty or at least a high probability. I don't deny that some outlier companies have some outlier employees that make that much, I'm just questioning the claim that it's usual to make that in these companies.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]