5 ms·

I'm just curious how people share projects with modern Squeak these days. I learned Squeak at GaTech and while I some what appreciated the language I really hat

by agentgt 11y ago

I'm just curious how people share projects with modern Squeak these days. I learned Squeak at GaTech and while I some what appreciated the language I really hated Squeaks tools and development style (basically monkey patching and sending big changesets and by god I want to use emacs not Squeaks Mattel/Fisher price kids editor... I'm sure its better now). Sadly Squeak was the start of my slow and gradual hate of OOP languages (Java later on did not help) but it did have some really cool things like traits and continuations.

cwp 11y ago
These days Squeak uses Monticello, which is a modern DVCS.
jcromartie 11y ago
Pharo is an effort to make a "grown-up" Squeak. It's hard to get the kind of interaction that makes Smalltalk work when you're inside a general-purpose text editor. When I'm working in Smalltalk, even though it's always a "toy" program, I feel like I'm sort of reaching into the computer's inner world and fiddling with things in a way you can't do with a plain old text editor.
- wtbob 11y ago
  > When I'm working in Smalltalk, even though it's always a "toy" program, I feel like I'm sort of reaching into the computer's inner world and fiddling with things in a way you can't do with a plain old text editor. There's always http://dmitrymatveev.co.uk/shampoo/ http://dmitrymatveev.co.uk/shampoo/
- a3n 11y ago
  > I feel like I'm sort of reaching into the computer's inner world and fiddling with things That's what I didn't like when I was playing with smalltalk in school (in '87)
daveloyall 11y ago
Development Tools Overview (Monticello, SqueakSource, SqueakMap) http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5878 http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5878
616c 11y ago
I got some shit for bringing this up last time, and I will again. Does anyone use GNU Smalltalk and how does it compete with the CogVM on performance? (GNU Smalltalk is a text-based version of Smalltalk, on a separate dedicated VM, and apparently is shippped with a functional Seaside port, and there were even cool incomplete projects like a Qt shim library to buiild GUIs [0]). [0] It ought to be gst-qt, as mentioned here, but unfortunately Github links and initial queries led me to a dead end for actual repos with code. http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project
- st-enthusiast 11y ago
  It's used by Etoile, at least. The problem with GNU Smalltalk is lack of traction (developers, users) and incompatibility with Pharo/Squeak. Pharo is the open source Smalltalk with the most traction at this point. There are also licensing concerns because it's LGPL, whereas Pharo/Squeak is MIT. I think using it as a scripting language in a UNIX environment would be easier than Pharo though.
  - 616c 11y ago
    Cool. I would love to see a Linux/UNIX system introspection tool built in any of the ST implementations. And do you work on Etoile? I am very surprised to hear it was built with Smalltalk. I remember some devs on FLOSS Weekly years ago, and I could be wrong, and I thought this was one of the few projects in the FLOSS world using Objective C (I thought it was a branch of GNUStep, but maybe I am just getting it confused with GNUStep). https://twit.tv/shows/floss-weekly/episodes/56 https://twit.tv/shows/floss-weekly/episodes/56 For others who did not know about its use of Smalltalk, the dev page hints at it. http://etoileos.com/downloads/installtrunk/ http://etoileos.com/downloads/installtrunk/ That is a very cool tidbit. Maybe it is time I finally sit down and play with EtoileOS. I listened a long time ago (we are talking years), but this explains also a point I remember that came up: object persistence and how modern OS X was doing cool stuff with application state (not just files) over reboots. Smalltalk makes that interest a lot more obvious now, and it seemed cool but far out and complicated at the time. Will definitely listen to the interview and encourage others to do the same!
MaysonL 11y ago
Check out Newspeak, a rather nicer OO language currently implemented on the Squeak VM. See the Newspeak website[0] and Newspeak on Squeak [1] [0] http://www.newspeaklanguage.org http://www.newspeaklanguage.org [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10049588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10049588
st-enthusiast 11y ago
I prefer the IDE to an editor because I don't have to type as much boilerplate. For example, to create a class I just fill out a class template and accept, and to add a method I just type code in the method pane and accept. The IDE is built just for Smalltalk and is extremely productive as a result. With Emacs + SLIME, I still find myself typing a lot of "(defun...", "(defmacro...", and "(defclass...") boilerplate.
dpeck 11y ago
Another ramblin wreck (cs '05) with Squeak PTSD checking in. The tooling was just terrible and turned me off a lot of the better things in OOP for a lot for years. I guess it serves as good training for kids who come out of school and fall into some awful legacy codebase that makes their first job hell, but for the rest of us it seemed like and unnecessarily confusing and frustrating choice.

by agentgt 11y ago

cwp 11y ago

These days Squeak uses Monticello, which is a modern DVCS.

jcromartie 11y ago

Pharo is an effort to make a "grown-up" Squeak. It's hard to get the kind of interaction that makes Smalltalk work when you're inside a general-purpose text editor. When I'm working in Smalltalk, even though it's always a "toy" program, I feel like I'm sort of reaching into the computer's inner world and fiddling with things in a way you can't do with a plain old text editor.

wtbob 11y ago
> When I'm working in Smalltalk, even though it's always a "toy" program, I feel like I'm sort of reaching into the computer's inner world and fiddling with things in a way you can't do with a plain old text editor. There's always http://dmitrymatveev.co.uk/shampoo/ http://dmitrymatveev.co.uk/shampoo/
a3n 11y ago
> I feel like I'm sort of reaching into the computer's inner world and fiddling with things That's what I didn't like when I was playing with smalltalk in school (in '87)

daveloyall 11y ago

Development Tools Overview (Monticello, SqueakSource, SqueakMap) http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5878 http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5878

616c 11y ago

I got some shit for bringing this up last time, and I will again. Does anyone use GNU Smalltalk and how does it compete with the CogVM on performance? (GNU Smalltalk is a text-based version of Smalltalk, on a separate dedicated VM, and apparently is shippped with a functional Seaside port, and there were even cool incomplete projects like a Qt shim library to buiild GUIs [0]). [0] It ought to be gst-qt, as mentioned here, but unfortunately Github links and initial queries led me to a dead end for actual repos with code. http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project

st-enthusiast 11y ago
It's used by Etoile, at least. The problem with GNU Smalltalk is lack of traction (developers, users) and incompatibility with Pharo/Squeak. Pharo is the open source Smalltalk with the most traction at this point. There are also licensing concerns because it's LGPL, whereas Pharo/Squeak is MIT. I think using it as a scripting language in a UNIX environment would be easier than Pharo though.
- 616c 11y ago
  Cool. I would love to see a Linux/UNIX system introspection tool built in any of the ST implementations. And do you work on Etoile? I am very surprised to hear it was built with Smalltalk. I remember some devs on FLOSS Weekly years ago, and I could be wrong, and I thought this was one of the few projects in the FLOSS world using Objective C (I thought it was a branch of GNUStep, but maybe I am just getting it confused with GNUStep). https://twit.tv/shows/floss-weekly/episodes/56 https://twit.tv/shows/floss-weekly/episodes/56 For others who did not know about its use of Smalltalk, the dev page hints at it. http://etoileos.com/downloads/installtrunk/ http://etoileos.com/downloads/installtrunk/ That is a very cool tidbit. Maybe it is time I finally sit down and play with EtoileOS. I listened a long time ago (we are talking years), but this explains also a point I remember that came up: object persistence and how modern OS X was doing cool stuff with application state (not just files) over reboots. Smalltalk makes that interest a lot more obvious now, and it seemed cool but far out and complicated at the time. Will definitely listen to the interview and encourage others to do the same!

MaysonL 11y ago

Check out Newspeak, a rather nicer OO language currently implemented on the Squeak VM. See the Newspeak website[0] and Newspeak on Squeak [1] [0] http://www.newspeaklanguage.org http://www.newspeaklanguage.org [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10049588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10049588

st-enthusiast 11y ago

I prefer the IDE to an editor because I don't have to type as much boilerplate. For example, to create a class I just fill out a class template and accept, and to add a method I just type code in the method pane and accept. The IDE is built just for Smalltalk and is extremely productive as a result. With Emacs + SLIME, I still find myself typing a lot of "(defun...", "(defmacro...", and "(defclass...") boilerplate.

dpeck 11y ago

Another ramblin wreck (cs '05) with Squeak PTSD checking in. The tooling was just terrible and turned me off a lot of the better things in OOP for a lot for years. I guess it serves as good training for kids who come out of school and fall into some awful legacy codebase that makes their first job hell, but for the rest of us it seemed like and unnecessarily confusing and frustrating choice.