8 ms·

And this is why we homeschool. Have a weird fascination with the human eye? Here's three medical textbooks, knock yourself out kid. Suck at math? No problem, we

And this is why we homeschool. Have a weird fascination with the human eye? Here's three medical textbooks, knock yourself out kid. Suck at math? No problem, we will take it as slow as we have to until you feel comfortable. There's no grades and pressure there's just things you've learned and things you're still learning.

chii 11y ago
so what happens if you suck at maths, and took an extraodinarily long time to get to the same stage as institutional schools would have? When would you know you are ready to leave homeschooling, and move to university?
- bunderbunder 11y ago
  I believe that when my parents homeschooled my younger brother he was still expected to pass all the state achievement benchmarks. I'm sure any such rule would vary by state in the US, though.
cryoshon 11y ago
The time commitment is pretty intense. I think that I'd love to homeschool my hypothetical child because I trust myself to do it right-- but I couldn't also provide for my family in the meantime.
- debacle 11y ago
  The time commitment is actually way less than you would expect. The amount of "fluff" that goes on during the school day is obnoxious. You could probably spend less than 3 hours a day and get a better education.
  - bigd 11y ago
    You really should hear how presumptuous you sound. How are teaching your son to deal with people? How is he going to learn that he lives in a society? That sometime life is boring? that sometimes you are not the only one? 3 hours a day might be enough for the curricular material, but schools are much much more than that.
    - rrss1122 11y ago
      You accuse debacle of being presumptuous, but you are presuming debacle doesn't already teach his/her son how to deal with people, learn he lives in a society, that sometimes life is boring, and that sometimes you are not the only one. By the way, school is not the only answer for any of the questions you asked.
    - quot66555 11y ago
      How is someone going to learn that he lives in a society being locked in a building all day with people exactly the same age and social class as he is? How is someone going to learn how to deal with people when they're constantly supervised by a team of bureaucrats whose job is to deal with students' problems for them? [1] I don't think anyone is claiming that the ideal homeschooling childhood consists of only interaction between parents and child, and nobody else. Neighbors, fellow homeschoolers, family, church, Scouts, camp, trips, actual adults: these are all sources of socialization. [1]I went to public school and it was good. But I'm open-minded to alternative forms of learning.
  - MrZongle2 11y ago
    We're going into our third year of homeschooling our two kids, and I can confirm this. Consider that an average class consists of 25-30 students; this means that for every hour of class time, your child averages about 2.5-3 minutes of one-on-one instructor time if the teacher did nothing else but work directly with individuals. Obviously in practice this doesn't work out: there are announcements, lectures, assemblies, fire drills, time for individual reading, and of course some students will demand more of the teacher's time than others either due to behavior problems or simply because they vocalize their need for help better than other kids. Compare this to homeschooling, where the student-to-teacher ratio is much lower, and the teacher is intimately familiar with the student's strengths and weaknesses. Also consider the teacher's motivation: it isn't a general love for teaching coupled with sticks & carrots imposed by the school, district and state but rather a parental desire for their children to learn and succeed.
- Clanan 11y ago
  But how much time in the American 8-hour school day is actually spent on education? A lower student-teacher ratio (i.e. 1:1) can drastically decrease time required for education. (I'm ignoring time required for other things like social activities, etc.) It's definitely a tradeoff!
jaawn 11y ago
I think probably a better solution is some sort of combination between home schooling and public school. Homeschooling alone makes it hard for children to learn peer social skills, and it makes it more difficult for them to relate later on to the majority of people who have had 13 years of primary/secondary education in a public school environment (in the US at least)
- jt2190 11y ago
  > Homeschooling alone makes it hard for children > to learn peer social skills... I think you meant to say "Keeping your child at home alone..." "Homeschooling" does not exclude socialization with other children.
  - jaawn 11y ago
    No, I literally meant homeschooling. Not all types of socializing are the same. The main thing home-schooled kids miss out on is being put in rooms with a diverse set of people, some of which are likely to be very different from them. The friction of dealing with people you disagree with, and the broader worldview gained from exposure to different ideas/cultures/attitudes are what I'm referring to. Setting up playdates with the other home-schooled kids, or being on the church basketball team, etc... will involve selecting your peers, which is something we rarely get to do in "real" adult life.
    - jt2190 11y ago
      The argument that the only way that children gain exposure to people with different backgrounds/ideas is to attend public school is dubious. Contrast that with public schools in the U.S. which are highly socially stratified. (Kids from wealthy neighborhoods attend schools that are populated with kids from the wealthy neighborhood... Not really the perfect ideal of "diverse".) (edit: The argument that children educated outside of the traditional school system find it more difficult to acquire social skills is also dubious.)
      - jaawn 11y ago
bigd 11y ago
I believe that when you homeschool your child, you are just blindee by your presumption. For one good student that comes out, you have one thousand religious zealot that believe earth is flat. It allows atrocities a la "dancing mom". It allows people to avoid vaccinations. Without mentioning the social awkwardness. I truly believe homeschooling is also a crime against humanity.
- unprepare 11y ago
  I have seen the religious zealots come out of homeschooling too. But do you have a source that has actual data showing that those are not a minority of the homeschool population? I see no reason to believe they are the majority simply because they are visible.
  - juliangregorian 11y ago
    I actually do. I won't be able to say much because I'd like this account to remain anonymous, but my parents are/were notable figures in the homeschooling movement. At least from the 90s-00s, religious homeschoolers were the solid majority of all homeschoolers in the US by far. Many of which are more extreme than you probably imagine.
- saiya-jin 11y ago
  hard to resist temptation to lower oneself to your level (and that's quite a road down there), but I'll try - you are wrong. as always, it depends on people involved.
- rrss1122 11y ago
  Talk about zealot...
gambiting 11y ago
I just quite simply don't understand where people find the time to homeschool their children. I leave for work around 8am, come back after 6pm - by the time you cook dinner and eat it's usually 8pm. When and how would I do this? It would be financially unfeasible for either me or my partner to stay at home at the moment, we both need jobs.
- scrupulusalbion 11y ago
  Homeschooling in the simplest form requires a stay-at-home parent (traditionally the mother) to dedicate his/her time to teaching the kids. So, if you already have to send your kids to daycare, then you probably will find homeschooling difficult to accomplish. For what its worth, Sudbury Schools [0] provide an interesting alternative to homeschooling. (TIL there is a Sudbury school in my area! [1]) Your comment points to the fact that, for at least some parents, schools amount to daycare with education tacked on. [0] = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school [1] = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sudbury_schools#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sudbury_schools#United...
georgerobinson 11y ago
> There's no grades and pressure there's just things you've learned and things you're still learning. I'm incredibly naive when it comes to homeschool, so I hope you don't mind me asking: if you don't grade what happens when you want to go to college? If you don't have any grades and didn't follow a curriculum how can an admissions team adequately assess whether you're a suitable candidate with the necessary credentials?
- cheetos 11y ago
  I have no experience with this but I assume they would just go off of everything except GPA. SAT / ACT / AP scores, extra curriculars, personal projects and achievements, and essays.
- brockers 11y ago
  Almost all states have a required test to prove grade level equivalency for all students. As education is mandatory for "school age" children; these tests not only prove capability but that the parents are actually doing the legal duty to provide education. College entrance is NOT an issue. After comparing SAT/ACT scores ever university I know prefers home schooled kids over most candidates, including all but the very best private school students. The academics I have talked to say that home schooled students are both more likely to graduate and do better academically than their non-home schooled counterparts (although I haven't seen any specific numbers to prove it.)
- TheGrimDerp1 11y ago
  GED is a thing... plus entrance exams ( ACT, SAT ) plus a varied list of extracurriculars...
cozzyd 11y ago
It's hard to advocate homeschooling as it's not a reasonable option for most people, either due to parents working or lack of necessary knowledge (at least at the high school level). I certainly wouldn't be comfortable teaching e.g. Spanish, French, or biology.
- ryanmarsh 11y ago
  We made a decision to live on one income.
ikerin 11y ago
A lot of people here talk about homeschooling/normal schooling as a binary choice with stark trade offs. But if anyone has read the recent Reinventing Organizations book then the example of Berlin school ESBZ[1] imediately comes to mind - self managed school where the kids decide their lessons, help each other and solve problems with help and advice from the parents, teachers and children from higher grades - they are still graded normally at the end of the year so they get the basic skills but they also get so so much more - problem solving, autonomy and authority, etc. I really don't get why we don't try to get all of our schools to work like that. [1]http://developyourchild.co.uk/blog/teal-school/ http://developyourchild.co.uk/blog/teal-school/
- brockers 11y ago
  Because such a system is not reasonably doable with a student to teacher ratio of 28-1
  - TheBeardKing 11y ago
    Right, and if to achieve that style of learning I have to give up half our salaries to private school, I'd choose homeschooling to get the added benefit of lower stress (on wife and kids) and generally more convenience and life comfort.
juliangregorian 11y ago
I have what seems to be a unique perspective in this thread, among a bunch of trendy libertarians. I was actually homeschooled my entire life. It wasn't great. It did not do much to prepare me for the adult world, where people don't really care if your precious ass needs extra time on something or would rather do something else, and you do have to collaborate with people you may not particularly care for. I did not anticipate the need to navigate office politics. After a lifetime being spoiled, I'm floundering. Most of the jobs I've held haven't lasted beyond 6 months. If I do have children, I would respect them enough to put aside my ideology (after all, I hate the government as much as the next HN reader) to not do them that particular "favor".
- ryanmarsh 11y ago
  We'll make sure we don't spoil our children.

chii 11y ago

so what happens if you suck at maths, and took an extraodinarily long time to get to the same stage as institutional schools would have? When would you know you are ready to leave homeschooling, and move to university?

bunderbunder 11y ago
I believe that when my parents homeschooled my younger brother he was still expected to pass all the state achievement benchmarks. I'm sure any such rule would vary by state in the US, though.

cryoshon 11y ago

The time commitment is pretty intense. I think that I'd love to homeschool my hypothetical child because I trust myself to do it right-- but I couldn't also provide for my family in the meantime.

debacle 11y ago
The time commitment is actually way less than you would expect. The amount of "fluff" that goes on during the school day is obnoxious. You could probably spend less than 3 hours a day and get a better education.
- bigd 11y ago
  You really should hear how presumptuous you sound. How are teaching your son to deal with people? How is he going to learn that he lives in a society? That sometime life is boring? that sometimes you are not the only one? 3 hours a day might be enough for the curricular material, but schools are much much more than that.
  - rrss1122 11y ago
    You accuse debacle of being presumptuous, but you are presuming debacle doesn't already teach his/her son how to deal with people, learn he lives in a society, that sometimes life is boring, and that sometimes you are not the only one. By the way, school is not the only answer for any of the questions you asked.
  - quot66555 11y ago
    How is someone going to learn that he lives in a society being locked in a building all day with people exactly the same age and social class as he is? How is someone going to learn how to deal with people when they're constantly supervised by a team of bureaucrats whose job is to deal with students' problems for them? [1] I don't think anyone is claiming that the ideal homeschooling childhood consists of only interaction between parents and child, and nobody else. Neighbors, fellow homeschoolers, family, church, Scouts, camp, trips, actual adults: these are all sources of socialization. [1]I went to public school and it was good. But I'm open-minded to alternative forms of learning.
- MrZongle2 11y ago
  We're going into our third year of homeschooling our two kids, and I can confirm this. Consider that an average class consists of 25-30 students; this means that for every hour of class time, your child averages about 2.5-3 minutes of one-on-one instructor time if the teacher did nothing else but work directly with individuals. Obviously in practice this doesn't work out: there are announcements, lectures, assemblies, fire drills, time for individual reading, and of course some students will demand more of the teacher's time than others either due to behavior problems or simply because they vocalize their need for help better than other kids. Compare this to homeschooling, where the student-to-teacher ratio is much lower, and the teacher is intimately familiar with the student's strengths and weaknesses. Also consider the teacher's motivation: it isn't a general love for teaching coupled with sticks & carrots imposed by the school, district and state but rather a parental desire for their children to learn and succeed.
Clanan 11y ago
But how much time in the American 8-hour school day is actually spent on education? A lower student-teacher ratio (i.e. 1:1) can drastically decrease time required for education. (I'm ignoring time required for other things like social activities, etc.) It's definitely a tradeoff!

jaawn 11y ago

I think probably a better solution is some sort of combination between home schooling and public school. Homeschooling alone makes it hard for children to learn peer social skills, and it makes it more difficult for them to relate later on to the majority of people who have had 13 years of primary/secondary education in a public school environment (in the US at least)

jt2190 11y ago
> Homeschooling alone makes it hard for children > to learn peer social skills... I think you meant to say "Keeping your child at home alone..." "Homeschooling" does not exclude socialization with other children.
- jaawn 11y ago
  No, I literally meant homeschooling. Not all types of socializing are the same. The main thing home-schooled kids miss out on is being put in rooms with a diverse set of people, some of which are likely to be very different from them. The friction of dealing with people you disagree with, and the broader worldview gained from exposure to different ideas/cultures/attitudes are what I'm referring to. Setting up playdates with the other home-schooled kids, or being on the church basketball team, etc... will involve selecting your peers, which is something we rarely get to do in "real" adult life.
  - jt2190 11y ago
    The argument that the only way that children gain exposure to people with different backgrounds/ideas is to attend public school is dubious. Contrast that with public schools in the U.S. which are highly socially stratified. (Kids from wealthy neighborhoods attend schools that are populated with kids from the wealthy neighborhood... Not really the perfect ideal of "diverse".) (edit: The argument that children educated outside of the traditional school system find it more difficult to acquire social skills is also dubious.)
    - jaawn 11y ago

bigd 11y ago

I believe that when you homeschool your child, you are just blindee by your presumption. For one good student that comes out, you have one thousand religious zealot that believe earth is flat. It allows atrocities a la "dancing mom". It allows people to avoid vaccinations. Without mentioning the social awkwardness. I truly believe homeschooling is also a crime against humanity.

unprepare 11y ago
I have seen the religious zealots come out of homeschooling too. But do you have a source that has actual data showing that those are not a minority of the homeschool population? I see no reason to believe they are the majority simply because they are visible.
- juliangregorian 11y ago
  I actually do. I won't be able to say much because I'd like this account to remain anonymous, but my parents are/were notable figures in the homeschooling movement. At least from the 90s-00s, religious homeschoolers were the solid majority of all homeschoolers in the US by far. Many of which are more extreme than you probably imagine.
saiya-jin 11y ago
hard to resist temptation to lower oneself to your level (and that's quite a road down there), but I'll try - you are wrong. as always, it depends on people involved.
rrss1122 11y ago
Talk about zealot...

gambiting 11y ago

I just quite simply don't understand where people find the time to homeschool their children. I leave for work around 8am, come back after 6pm - by the time you cook dinner and eat it's usually 8pm. When and how would I do this? It would be financially unfeasible for either me or my partner to stay at home at the moment, we both need jobs.

scrupulusalbion 11y ago
Homeschooling in the simplest form requires a stay-at-home parent (traditionally the mother) to dedicate his/her time to teaching the kids. So, if you already have to send your kids to daycare, then you probably will find homeschooling difficult to accomplish. For what its worth, Sudbury Schools [0] provide an interesting alternative to homeschooling. (TIL there is a Sudbury school in my area! [1]) Your comment points to the fact that, for at least some parents, schools amount to daycare with education tacked on. [0] = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school [1] = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sudbury_schools#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sudbury_schools#United...

georgerobinson 11y ago

> There's no grades and pressure there's just things you've learned and things you're still learning. I'm incredibly naive when it comes to homeschool, so I hope you don't mind me asking: if you don't grade what happens when you want to go to college? If you don't have any grades and didn't follow a curriculum how can an admissions team adequately assess whether you're a suitable candidate with the necessary credentials?

cheetos 11y ago
I have no experience with this but I assume they would just go off of everything except GPA. SAT / ACT / AP scores, extra curriculars, personal projects and achievements, and essays.
brockers 11y ago
Almost all states have a required test to prove grade level equivalency for all students. As education is mandatory for "school age" children; these tests not only prove capability but that the parents are actually doing the legal duty to provide education. College entrance is NOT an issue. After comparing SAT/ACT scores ever university I know prefers home schooled kids over most candidates, including all but the very best private school students. The academics I have talked to say that home schooled students are both more likely to graduate and do better academically than their non-home schooled counterparts (although I haven't seen any specific numbers to prove it.)
TheGrimDerp1 11y ago
GED is a thing... plus entrance exams ( ACT, SAT ) plus a varied list of extracurriculars...

cozzyd 11y ago

It's hard to advocate homeschooling as it's not a reasonable option for most people, either due to parents working or lack of necessary knowledge (at least at the high school level). I certainly wouldn't be comfortable teaching e.g. Spanish, French, or biology.

ryanmarsh 11y ago
We made a decision to live on one income.

ikerin 11y ago

A lot of people here talk about homeschooling/normal schooling as a binary choice with stark trade offs. But if anyone has read the recent Reinventing Organizations book then the example of Berlin school ESBZ[1] imediately comes to mind - self managed school where the kids decide their lessons, help each other and solve problems with help and advice from the parents, teachers and children from higher grades - they are still graded normally at the end of the year so they get the basic skills but they also get so so much more - problem solving, autonomy and authority, etc. I really don't get why we don't try to get all of our schools to work like that. [1]http://developyourchild.co.uk/blog/teal-school/ http://developyourchild.co.uk/blog/teal-school/

brockers 11y ago
Because such a system is not reasonably doable with a student to teacher ratio of 28-1
- TheBeardKing 11y ago
  Right, and if to achieve that style of learning I have to give up half our salaries to private school, I'd choose homeschooling to get the added benefit of lower stress (on wife and kids) and generally more convenience and life comfort.

juliangregorian 11y ago

I have what seems to be a unique perspective in this thread, among a bunch of trendy libertarians. I was actually homeschooled my entire life. It wasn't great. It did not do much to prepare me for the adult world, where people don't really care if your precious ass needs extra time on something or would rather do something else, and you do have to collaborate with people you may not particularly care for. I did not anticipate the need to navigate office politics. After a lifetime being spoiled, I'm floundering. Most of the jobs I've held haven't lasted beyond 6 months. If I do have children, I would respect them enough to put aside my ideology (after all, I hate the government as much as the next HN reader) to not do them that particular "favor".

ryanmarsh 11y ago
We'll make sure we don't spoil our children.