8 ms·

Admire anyone who can go full time into the game industry, which is one of the most competitive anywhere. And to do so as an independent is a high challenge. To

Admire anyone who can go full time into the game industry, which is one of the most competitive anywhere. And to do so as an independent is a high challenge. To pull that off for five years deserves great merit. Anyone who has published games to Apple's app store knows how hard it is to see any money from it.

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emsy 11y ago
Most games are generic crap. I've seen crap games make money, but I haven't seen a great game fail. People see Flappy Bird and want to imitate it because it's easy. Those who work hard don't rely on luck can still build a sustainable business. See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=45&v=1BCg31KVJok https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=45&v=1BCg31KVJok
- tobr 11y ago
  Watched the video you linked. I think it's saying the opposite, i.e. failure or success is more due to marketing and PR than to how great the game is. Not sure if that's entirely true, but it doesn't seem to support your argument.
- GuiA 11y ago
  > but I haven't seen a great game fail. Think for a bit about your sentence and what it implies :) (solution: that you've seen 100% of all great games ever submitted to the app store, which seems doubtful)
  - philsnow 11y ago
    Nonsense; the statement is true if he has seen exactly two games, both of which were "crap" and both of which failed.
    - ectoplasm 11y ago
      The statement is also true if he hasn't seen any games. It's just an anecdote about his experience, that's fine.
  - emsy 11y ago
    This is logical nitpicking and I don't even think you're right. It just implies that of all the games I've seen no great one failed. A game can be great by an arbitrary measure and still fail comercially.
  - rsaarelm 11y ago
    It is falsifiable though. All you'd need is for someone to notice that a game that has been lingering in obscurity for years is actually great and start bringing attention to it.
    - Paul_S 11y ago
      There many games that only achieved success years after release (for example Psychonauts). It's the same thing as with films (my favourite: Blade Runner).
- rebootthesystem 11y ago
  > I haven't seen a great game fail Being "great" (whatever that means) has nothing whatsoever to do with success. There are plenty of "great" things, games included, that fail. The whole idea of "building a better mouse-trap and people will beat a path to your door" is a fantasy. And this is particularly true for any app --game or not-- in something like Apple's App Store. You can take crap, add great marketing and turn it into solid cash-flow. In an ecosystem like the app store any app without a solid and aggressive marketing program is almost guaranteed to fail. Yes, "great" is better than "lame" but they don't succeed or fail on their own.
- Reedx 11y ago
  I agree for the most part, but great games do fail even on the AAA side. See Psychonauts, Beyond Good & Evil, Okami... Critically acclaimed and loved by gamers, but commercial failures. I'd guess it's more common in mobile and indie, but don't know for sure. I'd be really curious to see an in-depth analysis of it.
  - joshburgess 11y ago
    All 3 of those are fantastic games. Cheers. Okami was rereleased on a newer console at one point wasn't it? I think it probably did a little better. But yeah, in general, I think that because AAA games cost so much to make and usually cost more to buy, they have to cater to the masses more in order to be successful, whereas indie game devs are more like startups.... lean and mean. So, they don't require the same level of sales to be a success, and they are also free to make more niche and obscure games.
  - emsy 11y ago
    Thanks to you I've found this great article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_failures_in_video_gaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_failures_in... Also thanks for your comment, that's the reply I was hoping for. I think a lot of the reasons why and how games fail (commercially) have changed with things like social media and increased usage of stock game engines. Unfortunately most of the post mortems of failed (indie) games I've read are of rather bad games. This is what I've meant when I said I've never heard of a great failed game. The most vocal group are people with a bad game who feel like they're entitled to earn millions (rethoric hyperbole intended).
- tapirl 11y ago
  Success or fail is more related to marketing than game originality and quality. There are tons of cloned games sold well, and there are also many great original games aren't.
- TillE 11y ago
  Agreed. This point comes up frequently, and nobody's able to point to more than the tiniest handful of genuinely great games that have failed commercially. I think we can at least say that 99.9% of failed games are not very good. Regardless, if you're making something special, you're in a much better position to be able to promote it. In business terms, go for the niche that's not currently being served, and execute well. Do that, and the marketing is easy. Games journalists want to know about unique games that they'll love. They definitely don't want to cover the ten thousandth mediocre clone of whatever's popular at the moment.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Ico failed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ico
  - joshburgess 11y ago
    Shadow of the Colossus did pretty well though, didn't it?
- wisty 11y ago
  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_failures_in_video_gaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_failures_in...: Battlecruiser 3000AD, Beyond Good & Evil, Brütal Legend, Grim Fandango, The Last Express, Psychonauts, and Shenmue are often said to be pretty good. Also, 500 iOS games per day. Mostly, games fail because it's cut-throat. Yeah, a lot are generic, but some are probably pretty good. What's the standard of "great"? Popular? Well reviewed? In your opinion? Because there's well-reviewed games that flopped, and there's games I've personally liked that didn't make much money. There's even reasonably popular games that are complete commercial failures. Yes, if you have a AAA company, and a AAA marketing budget, it will drive some sales. But even then, they can flop.
- adnzzzzZ 11y ago
  I agree with you but what you're saying still holds true only for PC gaming (Steam) but not for mobile.
thearn4 11y ago
Game development seems to be one of the most competitive and least forgiving corners of the larger software development industry. A long time ago, games are what originally motivated me to learn to program. But some point along the way, I came to believe (whether true or false) that game development was really not a very enticing career path, both in terms of compensation and technical & creative challenges open to solve. I wonder how many others came into software along the same path.
- PythonicAlpha 11y ago
  > both in terms of compensation and technical & creative challenges open to solve Can you name other "career paths" where are more technical & creative challenges open to solve? I am working on an indie game project right now and worked for a big corporation in a total different sector before and I must say, that when you talk about compensation, you might be right (at least, when you are working in a company), ... ... but when thinking about technical & creative challenges, game development always wins for me hands-down in my personal experience.
  - ahmedbaracat 11y ago
    From my experience, I think compensation might be more prevalent when you are indie because you are less likely to have a stable income compared to working in a company. But I may be wrong :)
    - PythonicAlpha 11y ago
      I did not want to touch that topic, since there are different things to consider and experiences can differ. I mentioned only working in a company, since from that what I saw in my country, compensation for ordinary developers in a company are far less than when working in other sectors as software developer (in deed, I do not know any sector, where payment is less than in the Gaming industry). At least one plus is that the Gaming industry is more likely to take people without formal education (which might also be connected to the lower wages). Of course, when working in a company, you are less likely to not be able to pay your rent any more.
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Toine 11y ago
I disagree. The mistake many developers make is that they'll just make a fun game, upload it on the App Store/Play Store with a naive hope that it will get viral, and they'll get money. The reality is that mobile gaming is extremely competitive right now and you mainly have to work on getting your game known, understand how to monetize it, analyze the behavior of your users to optimize every important metric. Sadly, this is way less interesting and fun for us, the devs. Unfortunately this is how it works. Look at every big mobile gaming company. So it's not that it's really hard, it's just not something we like to do.
- philbarr 11y ago
  > So it's not that it's really hard, it's just not something we like to do. I think it's hard. I think it's REALLY hard - but I'm more than happy to learn, I just don't know what to do. And that's after reading Tim Ferris, signing up to various blog sites and reading as much as possible. There seams to be plenty of books on marketing theory out there; but very little in the way of practical, actionable advice.
  - wineisfine 11y ago
    The greatest achievement from Ferris was actually selling the book to us, suckers. It creates vague hope, but that's about it.
- ethread 11y ago
  > Sadly, this is way less interesting and fun for us, the devs. Unfortunately this is how it works I'm finishing up my first game now and I'm finding that monetizing and promoting it is going to be much less fun then building it was. This is a side project for me so interesting and fun is more important then money but I think I'm going to put in the effort to try to monetize and promote the game because I think it will be a good learning experience. And because my kids tell me my game is great!

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emsy 11y ago

Most games are generic crap. I've seen crap games make money, but I haven't seen a great game fail. People see Flappy Bird and want to imitate it because it's easy. Those who work hard don't rely on luck can still build a sustainable business. See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=45&v=1BCg31KVJok https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=45&v=1BCg31KVJok

tobr 11y ago
Watched the video you linked. I think it's saying the opposite, i.e. failure or success is more due to marketing and PR than to how great the game is. Not sure if that's entirely true, but it doesn't seem to support your argument.
GuiA 11y ago
> but I haven't seen a great game fail. Think for a bit about your sentence and what it implies :) (solution: that you've seen 100% of all great games ever submitted to the app store, which seems doubtful)
- philsnow 11y ago
  Nonsense; the statement is true if he has seen exactly two games, both of which were "crap" and both of which failed.
  - ectoplasm 11y ago
    The statement is also true if he hasn't seen any games. It's just an anecdote about his experience, that's fine.
- emsy 11y ago
  This is logical nitpicking and I don't even think you're right. It just implies that of all the games I've seen no great one failed. A game can be great by an arbitrary measure and still fail comercially.
- rsaarelm 11y ago
  It is falsifiable though. All you'd need is for someone to notice that a game that has been lingering in obscurity for years is actually great and start bringing attention to it.
  - Paul_S 11y ago
    There many games that only achieved success years after release (for example Psychonauts). It's the same thing as with films (my favourite: Blade Runner).
rebootthesystem 11y ago
> I haven't seen a great game fail Being "great" (whatever that means) has nothing whatsoever to do with success. There are plenty of "great" things, games included, that fail. The whole idea of "building a better mouse-trap and people will beat a path to your door" is a fantasy. And this is particularly true for any app --game or not-- in something like Apple's App Store. You can take crap, add great marketing and turn it into solid cash-flow. In an ecosystem like the app store any app without a solid and aggressive marketing program is almost guaranteed to fail. Yes, "great" is better than "lame" but they don't succeed or fail on their own.
Reedx 11y ago
I agree for the most part, but great games do fail even on the AAA side. See Psychonauts, Beyond Good & Evil, Okami... Critically acclaimed and loved by gamers, but commercial failures. I'd guess it's more common in mobile and indie, but don't know for sure. I'd be really curious to see an in-depth analysis of it.
- joshburgess 11y ago
  All 3 of those are fantastic games. Cheers. Okami was rereleased on a newer console at one point wasn't it? I think it probably did a little better. But yeah, in general, I think that because AAA games cost so much to make and usually cost more to buy, they have to cater to the masses more in order to be successful, whereas indie game devs are more like startups.... lean and mean. So, they don't require the same level of sales to be a success, and they are also free to make more niche and obscure games.
- emsy 11y ago
  Thanks to you I've found this great article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_failures_in_video_gaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_failures_in... Also thanks for your comment, that's the reply I was hoping for. I think a lot of the reasons why and how games fail (commercially) have changed with things like social media and increased usage of stock game engines. Unfortunately most of the post mortems of failed (indie) games I've read are of rather bad games. This is what I've meant when I said I've never heard of a great failed game. The most vocal group are people with a bad game who feel like they're entitled to earn millions (rethoric hyperbole intended).
tapirl 11y ago
Success or fail is more related to marketing than game originality and quality. There are tons of cloned games sold well, and there are also many great original games aren't.
TillE 11y ago
Agreed. This point comes up frequently, and nobody's able to point to more than the tiniest handful of genuinely great games that have failed commercially. I think we can at least say that 99.9% of failed games are not very good. Regardless, if you're making something special, you're in a much better position to be able to promote it. In business terms, go for the niche that's not currently being served, and execute well. Do that, and the marketing is easy. Games journalists want to know about unique games that they'll love. They definitely don't want to cover the ten thousandth mediocre clone of whatever's popular at the moment.
DanBC 11y ago
Ico failed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ico
- joshburgess 11y ago
  Shadow of the Colossus did pretty well though, didn't it?
wisty 11y ago
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_failures_in_video_gaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_failures_in...: Battlecruiser 3000AD, Beyond Good & Evil, Brütal Legend, Grim Fandango, The Last Express, Psychonauts, and Shenmue are often said to be pretty good. Also, 500 iOS games per day. Mostly, games fail because it's cut-throat. Yeah, a lot are generic, but some are probably pretty good. What's the standard of "great"? Popular? Well reviewed? In your opinion? Because there's well-reviewed games that flopped, and there's games I've personally liked that didn't make much money. There's even reasonably popular games that are complete commercial failures. Yes, if you have a AAA company, and a AAA marketing budget, it will drive some sales. But even then, they can flop.
adnzzzzZ 11y ago
I agree with you but what you're saying still holds true only for PC gaming (Steam) but not for mobile.

thearn4 11y ago

Game development seems to be one of the most competitive and least forgiving corners of the larger software development industry. A long time ago, games are what originally motivated me to learn to program. But some point along the way, I came to believe (whether true or false) that game development was really not a very enticing career path, both in terms of compensation and technical & creative challenges open to solve. I wonder how many others came into software along the same path.

PythonicAlpha 11y ago
> both in terms of compensation and technical & creative challenges open to solve Can you name other "career paths" where are more technical & creative challenges open to solve? I am working on an indie game project right now and worked for a big corporation in a total different sector before and I must say, that when you talk about compensation, you might be right (at least, when you are working in a company), ... ... but when thinking about technical & creative challenges, game development always wins for me hands-down in my personal experience.
- ahmedbaracat 11y ago
  From my experience, I think compensation might be more prevalent when you are indie because you are less likely to have a stable income compared to working in a company. But I may be wrong :)
  - PythonicAlpha 11y ago
    I did not want to touch that topic, since there are different things to consider and experiences can differ. I mentioned only working in a company, since from that what I saw in my country, compensation for ordinary developers in a company are far less than when working in other sectors as software developer (in deed, I do not know any sector, where payment is less than in the Gaming industry). At least one plus is that the Gaming industry is more likely to take people without formal education (which might also be connected to the lower wages). Of course, when working in a company, you are less likely to not be able to pay your rent any more.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Toine 11y ago

I disagree. The mistake many developers make is that they'll just make a fun game, upload it on the App Store/Play Store with a naive hope that it will get viral, and they'll get money. The reality is that mobile gaming is extremely competitive right now and you mainly have to work on getting your game known, understand how to monetize it, analyze the behavior of your users to optimize every important metric. Sadly, this is way less interesting and fun for us, the devs. Unfortunately this is how it works. Look at every big mobile gaming company. So it's not that it's really hard, it's just not something we like to do.

philbarr 11y ago
> So it's not that it's really hard, it's just not something we like to do. I think it's hard. I think it's REALLY hard - but I'm more than happy to learn, I just don't know what to do. And that's after reading Tim Ferris, signing up to various blog sites and reading as much as possible. There seams to be plenty of books on marketing theory out there; but very little in the way of practical, actionable advice.
- wineisfine 11y ago
  The greatest achievement from Ferris was actually selling the book to us, suckers. It creates vague hope, but that's about it.
ethread 11y ago
> Sadly, this is way less interesting and fun for us, the devs. Unfortunately this is how it works I'm finishing up my first game now and I'm finding that monetizing and promoting it is going to be much less fun then building it was. This is a side project for me so interesting and fun is more important then money but I think I'm going to put in the effort to try to monetize and promote the game because I think it will be a good learning experience. And because my kids tell me my game is great!