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That's the smartest thing they've done all week. Now it's time to bury it dead. This is a solution looking for a problem (tm). The only thing this code of cond

That's the smartest thing they've done all week. Now it's time to bury it dead. This is a solution looking for a problem (tm). The only thing this code of conduct does beside state the obvious (behave like adults) is the implied distrust expressed by introducing it in the first place: that without being nannied into proper behaviour, we would all act like vile animals. Generally I find such nannying deeply offensive.

voltagex_ 11y ago
Why? Edit: you edited that comment from a single line since I posted this. To elaborate: I think that codes of conduct can be very very useful, especially in resolving disputes or setting community standards. I don't think it's driven out of distrust. High profile harassment on GitHub is not good for GitHub, or the open source community as a whole.
- return0 11y ago
  So is github trying to become the defacto community leader of all open source software? I was under the impression there are many different teams in there that had different standards. Does open source even need a universal nanny? Isnt the idea of free software completely opposite to this? It would make sense if github did this in response to persistent issues with the community, but by doing it pre-emptively it seems like they have ambitions to become some kind of worldwide coordinator.
  - johnny22 11y ago
    an opt-in code of conduct per project doesn't seem to be universal nannying
    - return0 11y ago
      Oops i didn't know it was opt-in. Although with github recommending it it will become the defacto code, and it's likely to be mandatory a few years down the road.
EliRivers 11y ago
It's offensive, to a woman, to talk to her without permission from her male guardian. It's offensive, to a woman, to ask for some man's permission to talk to her. Both of these are true. Both of these are false. In order to know what's offensive for any given group, a written summary is extremely helpful. Posit a group of people brought together from around the world from many varied cultures. They have no way to know what is, and is not, acceptable behaviour. Insisting that people just "behave like adults" is no help at all when different societies can have wildly different views of the correct behaviour of adults, and you also get the effect that each of them believes they are behaving like an adult and it's the other people who are wrong. It's a recipe for disaster.
- Svenstaro 11y ago
  Bottom line is: People will find ways to feel offended.
  - josteink 11y ago
    Add to that: creating a mile long contract for what is and isn't proper conduct is guaranteed to create more problems and disagreement than it aims to resolve.
  - EliRivers 11y ago
    Yes they will. If you have no written rules, when they get offended, you've got problems. If you have the written rules, when they get offended, you can kick someone out for either breaking the rules or complaining about something that isn't against the rules. So much easier.
Svenstaro 11y ago
I agree. I have yet to encounter a truly bad interaction on Github. And what if I did? Learning to ignore things that could unreasonably sour your mood is a valuable skill in life anyway. Life itself doesn't really have a code like proposed.
- anon3_ 11y ago
  > And what if I did? Learning to ignore things that could unreasonably sour your mood is a valuable skill in life anyway. Life itself doesn't really have a code like proposed. De-escalated depending on the context of the situation. Code of Conduct defines problems and could turn anything funny, innocent, etc. into an excuse to ruin someone's life. 9/10 times it's someone who doesn't program (an Adria Richards, Shanley Kane) who will be attacking someone who actually contributes.
  - cmsj 11y ago
    -1. Implies lines of code is the only possible contribution one can make.
    - anon3_ 11y ago
      Do you expect everyone to water down thoughts with a bullet-point list of qualifiers to have a point? The people causing the social outrage debacles, often can't program. They're complete outsiders who think they can use social ideas and useful idiots as a vehicle for their own benefit. Many QAers and PM's can or have programmed some, at one point, or else they wouldn't understand the domain of the problem. Most of the trouble crowd tend to be social marketers and so-called "evangelists" on twitter. They're not programmers. These people leading the vanguard of your code of conduct movements - they're not even really tech. They're happy when you invent these new job positions to give them a paycheck.
      - cmsj 11y ago
        You seem to be continuing to operate under the assumption that only people who can code, are capable of contributing to a project. There are so many things that can be done to contribute to a project, that don't involve writing a single line of code. Testing, evangelism, documentation, support, etc, etc. Why should attempting to improve the culture of a project, be any different?
anon3_ 11y ago
I'm just getting miserable by all the hypersensitive crybabies out there. What about my feelings? No one's going to care because I'm white and conservative.
- cmsj 11y ago
  When your feelings, your hopes, your opportunities and your freedom, have been trampled on for decades if not centuries if not millennia, you might have a better claim to victimhood.

voltagex_ 11y ago

Why? Edit: you edited that comment from a single line since I posted this. To elaborate: I think that codes of conduct can be very very useful, especially in resolving disputes or setting community standards. I don't think it's driven out of distrust. High profile harassment on GitHub is not good for GitHub, or the open source community as a whole.

return0 11y ago
So is github trying to become the defacto community leader of all open source software? I was under the impression there are many different teams in there that had different standards. Does open source even need a universal nanny? Isnt the idea of free software completely opposite to this? It would make sense if github did this in response to persistent issues with the community, but by doing it pre-emptively it seems like they have ambitions to become some kind of worldwide coordinator.
- johnny22 11y ago
  an opt-in code of conduct per project doesn't seem to be universal nannying
  - return0 11y ago
    Oops i didn't know it was opt-in. Although with github recommending it it will become the defacto code, and it's likely to be mandatory a few years down the road.

EliRivers 11y ago

It's offensive, to a woman, to talk to her without permission from her male guardian. It's offensive, to a woman, to ask for some man's permission to talk to her. Both of these are true. Both of these are false. In order to know what's offensive for any given group, a written summary is extremely helpful. Posit a group of people brought together from around the world from many varied cultures. They have no way to know what is, and is not, acceptable behaviour. Insisting that people just "behave like adults" is no help at all when different societies can have wildly different views of the correct behaviour of adults, and you also get the effect that each of them believes they are behaving like an adult and it's the other people who are wrong. It's a recipe for disaster.

Svenstaro 11y ago
Bottom line is: People will find ways to feel offended.
- josteink 11y ago
  Add to that: creating a mile long contract for what is and isn't proper conduct is guaranteed to create more problems and disagreement than it aims to resolve.
- EliRivers 11y ago
  Yes they will. If you have no written rules, when they get offended, you've got problems. If you have the written rules, when they get offended, you can kick someone out for either breaking the rules or complaining about something that isn't against the rules. So much easier.

Svenstaro 11y ago

I agree. I have yet to encounter a truly bad interaction on Github. And what if I did? Learning to ignore things that could unreasonably sour your mood is a valuable skill in life anyway. Life itself doesn't really have a code like proposed.

anon3_ 11y ago
> And what if I did? Learning to ignore things that could unreasonably sour your mood is a valuable skill in life anyway. Life itself doesn't really have a code like proposed. De-escalated depending on the context of the situation. Code of Conduct defines problems and could turn anything funny, innocent, etc. into an excuse to ruin someone's life. 9/10 times it's someone who doesn't program (an Adria Richards, Shanley Kane) who will be attacking someone who actually contributes.
- cmsj 11y ago
  -1. Implies lines of code is the only possible contribution one can make.
  - anon3_ 11y ago
    Do you expect everyone to water down thoughts with a bullet-point list of qualifiers to have a point? The people causing the social outrage debacles, often can't program. They're complete outsiders who think they can use social ideas and useful idiots as a vehicle for their own benefit. Many QAers and PM's can or have programmed some, at one point, or else they wouldn't understand the domain of the problem. Most of the trouble crowd tend to be social marketers and so-called "evangelists" on twitter. They're not programmers. These people leading the vanguard of your code of conduct movements - they're not even really tech. They're happy when you invent these new job positions to give them a paycheck.
    - cmsj 11y ago
      You seem to be continuing to operate under the assumption that only people who can code, are capable of contributing to a project. There are so many things that can be done to contribute to a project, that don't involve writing a single line of code. Testing, evangelism, documentation, support, etc, etc. Why should attempting to improve the culture of a project, be any different?

anon3_ 11y ago

I'm just getting miserable by all the hypersensitive crybabies out there. What about my feelings? No one's going to care because I'm white and conservative.

cmsj 11y ago
When your feelings, your hopes, your opportunities and your freedom, have been trampled on for decades if not centuries if not millennia, you might have a better claim to victimhood.