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China seems to be the crucible of some remarkable scary political and social innovation. I don't know what is more likely to happen: police stationed within a o

China seems to be the crucible of some remarkable scary political and social innovation. I don't know what is more likely to happen: police stationed within a office will be ridiculously corrupt or it will totally kill any innovation or risk taking within the company.

jacquesm 11y ago
It will certainly have a 'chilling effect' if there ever was. China is between a rock and a hard place. Either they're going to have to open up completely (which will result in a democracy and obliteration the group that has been running the country for decades) or they're going to have to try to contain the genie. They're obviously trying to do the latter but it will hurt them economically in the longer run. As long as there is visible progress my guess is the current batch of leaders will do just fine, as soon as progress stagnates there may be a more dramatic change.
- baseballmerpeak 11y ago
  Technology leaders should “demonstrate positive energy in purifying cyberspace,” Xi said. It's not censorship; it's purification.
- alexro 11y ago
  hasn't it been the same in China for 5000 years? What's different now? The only difference I can tell is China becoming the world empire and this is not because of the democracy.
  - codewithcheese 11y ago
    Many things have changed in the last 5000 years. For one now most Chinese can easily communicate with people for all over the world.
    - alexro 11y ago
      And what's that the china people will learn about other countries would make them act differently to the last 5000 years?
      - caskance 11y ago
        Before, they only thought they were the best country in the world. Now, they can "know" it - as filtered by the great firewall, anyway.
    - jebblue 11y ago
      They can easily communicate through the great firewall so whatever the government allows and now their police force will ensure that.
- netcan 11y ago
  I disagree, though I'm not particularly pleased about it. I think 25 years ago, it seemed that choice existed. You could do liberal, capitalist democracy following the examples of Western Europe, Japan & the US. The other hand was a hodgepodge of failure, either state failure or economic failure. Most notably was the failed soviet bloc but also China, India & South America (right and left). All or nothing. Revolution or stagnation. Free your people or live in culturaly stagnant, poverty stricken destitute with . The idea that political freedoms necessary for democracy are intertwined with the economic freedoms necessary for capitalism had a lot of traction. But, with the examples of the last generation (positive and negative) I think that is no longer conventional wisdom. China's been very successful at growing economically by hand selecting policies and freedoms they want and keeping other out. You could call it non-fundamentalist or you could call it unprincipled depending on your biases and judgements, but it's hard to ignore it. China has been selectively liberalizing economically, socially and (to a lesser extent) politically. It doesn't see how you could argue that a sudden democratization in 1980 or 1990 would have gotten them further along. The reality is that the choices are nowhere near black and white. There is such a thing as a soft authoritarian, single party, free market state. They are doing it. Its nice to think that liberal democracy and prosperity are intertwined because I like democracy. But, I think democracy must be justified on its own merits. The conic advantages…. They're debatable.
  - hellbanner 11y ago
    For a great read on government role in modern capitalism, I recommend http://www.amazon.com/Things-They-Dont-About-Capitalism/dp/1608193381 http://www.amazon.com/Things-They-Dont-About-Capitalism/dp/1...
  - spiralpolitik 11y ago
    China is a somewhat unique example as they are operating at a scale that no other country has to deal with. So solutions that work at the 300 million people scale, simply don't work at 2 billion people scale. While this doesn't justify China's actions, it does provide an explanation for them.
    - 11y ago
- spiralpolitik 11y ago
  Isn't that the same the world over right now? I mean the Koch brothers aren't throwing lobbying money around because they are a charity, they are doing it to ensure that the revolution that will put them up against the wall never happens. Same with any hierarchical structure.
teddyh 11y ago
Why not both? In fact, I see this as the most likely outcome.
fweespeech 11y ago
Its not a political and/or social innovation. Security services have been doing this since Telecom was invented. We have "commercial partnerships" in the US with the various Telecom companies b/t them and the security services that basically serves the same purpose. Room 641A, etc.

jacquesm 11y ago

It will certainly have a 'chilling effect' if there ever was. China is between a rock and a hard place. Either they're going to have to open up completely (which will result in a democracy and obliteration the group that has been running the country for decades) or they're going to have to try to contain the genie. They're obviously trying to do the latter but it will hurt them economically in the longer run. As long as there is visible progress my guess is the current batch of leaders will do just fine, as soon as progress stagnates there may be a more dramatic change.

baseballmerpeak 11y ago
Technology leaders should “demonstrate positive energy in purifying cyberspace,” Xi said. It's not censorship; it's purification.
alexro 11y ago
hasn't it been the same in China for 5000 years? What's different now? The only difference I can tell is China becoming the world empire and this is not because of the democracy.
- codewithcheese 11y ago
  Many things have changed in the last 5000 years. For one now most Chinese can easily communicate with people for all over the world.
  - alexro 11y ago
    And what's that the china people will learn about other countries would make them act differently to the last 5000 years?
    - caskance 11y ago
      Before, they only thought they were the best country in the world. Now, they can "know" it - as filtered by the great firewall, anyway.
  - jebblue 11y ago
    They can easily communicate through the great firewall so whatever the government allows and now their police force will ensure that.
netcan 11y ago
I disagree, though I'm not particularly pleased about it. I think 25 years ago, it seemed that choice existed. You could do liberal, capitalist democracy following the examples of Western Europe, Japan & the US. The other hand was a hodgepodge of failure, either state failure or economic failure. Most notably was the failed soviet bloc but also China, India & South America (right and left). All or nothing. Revolution or stagnation. Free your people or live in culturaly stagnant, poverty stricken destitute with . The idea that political freedoms necessary for democracy are intertwined with the economic freedoms necessary for capitalism had a lot of traction. But, with the examples of the last generation (positive and negative) I think that is no longer conventional wisdom. China's been very successful at growing economically by hand selecting policies and freedoms they want and keeping other out. You could call it non-fundamentalist or you could call it unprincipled depending on your biases and judgements, but it's hard to ignore it. China has been selectively liberalizing economically, socially and (to a lesser extent) politically. It doesn't see how you could argue that a sudden democratization in 1980 or 1990 would have gotten them further along. The reality is that the choices are nowhere near black and white. There is such a thing as a soft authoritarian, single party, free market state. They are doing it. Its nice to think that liberal democracy and prosperity are intertwined because I like democracy. But, I think democracy must be justified on its own merits. The conic advantages…. They're debatable.
- hellbanner 11y ago
  For a great read on government role in modern capitalism, I recommend http://www.amazon.com/Things-They-Dont-About-Capitalism/dp/1608193381 http://www.amazon.com/Things-They-Dont-About-Capitalism/dp/1...
- spiralpolitik 11y ago
  China is a somewhat unique example as they are operating at a scale that no other country has to deal with. So solutions that work at the 300 million people scale, simply don't work at 2 billion people scale. While this doesn't justify China's actions, it does provide an explanation for them.
  - 11y ago
spiralpolitik 11y ago
Isn't that the same the world over right now? I mean the Koch brothers aren't throwing lobbying money around because they are a charity, they are doing it to ensure that the revolution that will put them up against the wall never happens. Same with any hierarchical structure.

teddyh 11y ago

Why not both? In fact, I see this as the most likely outcome.

fweespeech 11y ago

Its not a political and/or social innovation. Security services have been doing this since Telecom was invented. We have "commercial partnerships" in the US with the various Telecom companies b/t them and the security services that basically serves the same purpose. Room 641A, etc.