5 ms·

Netflix Announces Its New ‘Unlimited’ Maternity and Paternity Leave Program

130 points by domdip 11y ago

omarforgotpwd 11y ago
"With this in mind, today we’re introducing an unlimited leave policy for new moms and dads that allows them to take off as much time as they want during the first year after a child’s birth or adoption" Ah, unlimited for a year. So no taking 30 years off after your child is born then.
- Retric 11y ago
  Mind you, Netflix has an unlimited time off policy, but today’s policy update is a clear reminder that the company wants the best talent. I suspect many of these simply end up as less formal polices. However, there are large benefits to allowing for extended leave which few Americans actually use. It’s bad enough that some companies require people to take at least 2 weeks off every year.
  - greggyb 11y ago
    My company has a policy requiring that individuals take at least one contiguous week of time off a year.
- adrice727 11y ago
  There's always a catch.
  - Dylan16807 11y ago
    That's not a catch. This is unlimited maternity and paternity leave. If you don't have a new child it's not maternity and paternity leave anymore, it's just leave.
- izend 11y ago
  So basically what Canadians and Europeans get?
  - someear 11y ago
    It's paid by the government over there, not the company. Not sure about different places in Europe, but it's also not paid at 100% (at least in Canada)
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - foldor 11y ago
      As far as I'm aware in Canada you get 60% of your pay for a full year while on maternity leave. Many companies contribute the other 40% for at least 6 months of that time.
    - wesd 11y ago
      In Canada, if you're on maternity/paternity leave, you're on Employment Insurance. The maximum insurable amount is 49K or 55% of your earnings. Maximum payout is around 28K per year.
- ars 11y ago
  > So no taking 30 years off after your child is born then. That's simple - just keep having children. Time it right and you can take off permanently for decades.
  - Cadsby 11y ago
    And yet virtually no ones does this.
    - eitally 11y ago
      After the first one or two most people start to fully understands the downsides of such a proposition.
    - alialkhatib 11y ago
      A friend has 6 kids and I'm beginning to wonder what his company's pat/mat policy is...
- kethinov 11y ago
  You've got to wonder what would happen if someone tried to take that full year off, then was fired for taking "too much" of their "unlimited (up to a year)" time off after having a child.
  - Spoom 11y ago
    If they're an at-will employee in the US, probably nothing.
ejcx 11y ago
That seems great. Is there any protection from abuse? It seems that one could say "See you next year" with this and get a year-long vacation. Is that accurate. Would that actually work? Is there any contract saying you won't take your year off and quit on your last day? OR is this all hinging on you getting a continued workload complete, and not just a year vacation.
- ryoshu 11y ago
  Having a newborn is not a year long vacation. While it's possible that some employees could abuse a year of maternity/paternity leave by quitting after the one year term, I imagine this move will greatly increase company loyalty amongst new, potential and existing parents.
  - Yakimoto 11y ago
    Having a newborn isn't a task put against you. You elected for it. Don't perpetuate the idea that some credit is owed to parents as if it's not a year long vacation.
    - ryoshu 11y ago
      Nowhere did I say it was a task put against you or that something is owed to parents. This is a perk being offered by the company, just like free lunches or monthly team outings. It's a very attractive perk for couples looking to have a family and will like engender loyalty within that cohort.
- InclinedPlane 11y ago
  In practice it's unlikely to be a problem. Step 1 is that you just avoid hiring people who aren't intrinsically motivated anyway. The rest pretty much takes care of itself.
- rquantz 11y ago
  A year of maternity or paternity leave would be pretty reasonable, I think. Taking the full year would not be abuse, it would be following the letter of the policy.
Osmium 11y ago
Congratulations Netflix. I'm personally a big believer that equal maternity and paternity leave is crucial for future equality in the workforce, and Netflix have just set a great example to the rest of the industry. And a full year is excellent too. Hopefully other employers will take notice, or even better it becomes a legal requirement. Why it isn't already in some countries[1] continues to mystify–to my mind, a business should not be considered successful unless it can afford to, and does, treat its employees like human beings. [1] I say "some countries" but really it's only the United States and Papua New Guinea that haven't made it a legal requirement to have some form of paid maternity leave, among countries where data is available (e.g. North Korea isn't listed). Oman used to be in that list, but they left in 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave and http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_242615.pdf http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcom...
- icebraining 11y ago
  Saying "the US" is usually not helpful here, since many of these issues are simply not legislated at the national/federal level. Some states do have paid leave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternity_leave_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Paid_maternity_leave_by_state.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternity_leave_in_the_United_...
  - Osmium 11y ago
    It's very encouraging to see some states have it, but an awful lot of that map is blank... I did see a news article recently about the Navy being quite progressive in this regard though (recently tripling its maternity leave time), which is also encouraging.
  - rosser 11y ago
    GP is talking about parity between maternity and paternity leave. Citing statistics about the existence (or, as is demonstrably more common, non-existence) of maternity leave is pretty orthogonal to that. Unless you're claiming that the fact that most states don't offer any paid maternity leave (and almost certainly no paid paternity leave, either) counts as the kind of parity the GP was arguing for, I guess.
hughes 11y ago
I'm glad to see paternity leave included and given equal weight to maternity. So many employers don't offer this important benefit.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > I'm glad to see paternity leave included and given equal weight to maternity. So many employers don't offer this important benefit. Really? What employer doesn't offer family leave on equal terms? Certainly, this used to be quite common, but every place I've seen for many years has explicitly been equal.
  - rmordoff 11y ago
    The link references an article about yahoo that states yahoo and google give more time off for maternity leave (the article is from 2013 so it may have changed since then). "Yahoo will give mothers after the birth of a child from 8 weeks to 16 weeks. Fathers of newborns will get 8 weeks paid leave. Google gives mothers five months off and fathers seven weeks off." http://www.businessinsider.com/marissa-mayer-doubles-the-length-of-yahoos-paid-maternity-leave-gives-new-dads-eight-weeks-off-2013-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/marissa-mayer-doubles-the-len...
    - raldi 11y ago
      Google gives non-birth-mother parents 12 weeks of paid parental leave if they're the primary or equal caregiver during that time. For example, if you work at Google and both you and your wife work full time, and then she has a baby (or you adopt) and you'd like to both stay home to be equal caregivers, you get 12 weeks of paid leave with basically no questions asked.
quietplatypus 11y ago
The way this is going to pan out, is that the House Slaves and Tools who love to crab bucket and compete with others will not take any maternity/paternity leave, and politically push out those who would take a reasonable amount of leave. To be fair, of course the others would still be paid during this, but they will have to move to another company and take a hit in reputation. So in the end, this is either great news for people with crab bucket mentalities, or for everyone else, a great way to get a year-long severance while finding a better place to work.
caoilte 11y ago
Unlimited leave policies encourage employees to self-police and conform to peer pressure. At a place like Netflix I can imagine the result being that people end up taking less than the industry average. A better gimmick would be if Netflix picked one of the Nordics and announced that they were going to adopt all of the social policies provided by that country's government.
- Osmium 11y ago
  > Unlimited leave policies encourage employees to self-police and conform to peer pressure. I'm sympathetic to your concerns, but this is still a good thing and–importantly–a very good step in the right direction. Playing devil's advocate a little, but this "peer pressure" idea seems to come with paid vacation too. I think, to an extent, it's peoples own responsibility to resist this peer pressure, rather than the company's. I would always take paid vacation on principle, for example. If you don't want me to take it, don't offer it to me–and if you don't offer it to me, I'll take a job somewhere else, thank you. I'm quite happy for the quality of my work to be judged on its own merits. Which is not to say it's easy to do if you're working at a company with an entrenched culture of abusive expectations. But we only become complicit in it if we give into peer pressure rather than asserting our rights, no? That said, I say this from the privileged position of living in a country where taking paid vacation is expected, so perhaps it's easy for me to say...
- kelukelugames 11y ago
  I agree. This is Netflix we are talking about.
- danudey 11y ago
  > I can imagine the result being that people end up taking less than the industry average The industry average in the US is abysmal though. Yahoo 'doubled' theirs to 16 weeks, which is 1/3 of Canada's (and many other countries') legally mandated minimum. Taking double the industry average would still be abysmal by global standards.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
cldellow 11y ago
Doesn't Netflix already offer unlimited vacation? Parental leave isn't vacation, of course, but the cynic in me thinks this is another example of a case where a corporation can benevolently offer the moon while replying on peer pressure to ensure that no employee accepts what is on offer to anywhere near its fullest extent. Does Netflix publish any stats about vacation usage?
- giaour 11y ago
  Isn't part of their unlimited vacation perk a promise not to track how much vacation you use?
  - CrankyFool 11y ago
    It's not explicit, but as I noted above that generally ends up being the case. Most other managers here with whom I've talked consider tracking vacation usage ... suspect and worrisome. It feels icky, so we don't do it.
- e40 11y ago
  Does Netflix publish any stats about vacation usage? I would love to see stats. I doubt they'll publish them. If people use less vacation than they used to (before the policy went into effect), then they would take a negative PR hit for it. If they used more than before, then it might encourage other employees to do the same.
- svachalek 11y ago
  Although the word "unlimited" gets thrown around in casual usage, of course no company is going to pay you forever if you never show up for a day of work. You've still got to get your job done at a high level perspective (say quarterly) but the idea is that management is not tracking every hour you show up to work or decide to take off; they're looking at results not attendance. In that light I'm reading this as essentially setting the expectations bar very low, potentially to nothing, for a year. Basically this policy and pretty much all of Netflix's policies come down to behaving like a professional and treating other people with the same expectations. If you lose that culture and either side starts to misbehave of course things could go very badly. But that culture is very important to Netflix and they are always working consciously to preserve it. I haven't seen any official stats about vacation (as someone else pointed out, in order to do that they'd have to track it) but I've never known anyone to have a problem with it. I've seen quite a few people take 3 weeks or so at a time because they're going overseas, and in Silicon Valley that's pretty unheard of. Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, I don't speak for the company, yada, yada. I'm just a rank and file employee interpreting what I know.
SweetPotato 11y ago
This is a step in right direction. "The United States remains the only member of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, or OECD, that does not guarantee mothers any paid time off from work after the birth of a new child. (see Figure 1) In fact, the United States is one of only four countries in the world—along with Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Papua New Guinea—where workers do not have the right to paid maternity leave." http://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/IWD_PaidLeave_fig1.png http://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/I...
SweetPotato 11y ago
just to reinforce the point: "United States is one of only four countries in the world—along with Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Papua New Guinea—where workers do not have the right to paid maternity leave." How is this possible great USA?
ghughes 11y ago
I'm highly suspicious of "unlimited" vacation or leave policies because the line between reasonable and not is still there, it's just way less visible and ultimately arbitrary, depending on your management chain and workload. I can't wait for this fad to die. Let's just have generous, well-defined leave policies that don't put the onus on the employee to figure out what is OK and what isn't. "Experience shows people perform better at work when they’re not worrying about home." People also perform better at work when they're not worrying about repercussions for being seen to abuse their "unlimited" leave.
- rezistik 11y ago
  I think unlimited with a minimum is really the solution. Without a minimum people are reluctant to take time off from what I've seen and read.
  - wilg 11y ago
    I agree. Though, where I work we have unlimited vacation and there definitely seems to be peer encouragement to take _more_ vacation, not less.
    - ghughes 11y ago
      I'd expect it to work much better when there's an unlimited vacation policy from the start and the founders make a determined effort to push the culture in that direction.
  - michaelchisari 11y ago
    I've seen places that have that minimum be mandatory. As in, if you haven't taken a vacation by a certain time, they will insist, even go so far as restricting access until the vacation is over. The great thing about a mandatory minimum (never thought I'd be saying those words), is that it doesn't allow someone to over work themselves into a frenzy, making everyone else look lazy, while simultaneously burning themselves out.
    - 11y ago
mullen 11y ago
This is dumb. As others have pointed out, all it does is use peer pressure to decide what the "proper amount" of Paternity Leave is. Netflix is probably such a pressure cooker that when people need to and want to take Paternity Leave, they won't take it for fear of upsetting the group and losing their jobs. Managers will abuse it just to keep productivity up. Want to be a progressive company? Clearly define how long Paternity Leave is, make it generous, tell employees to take it and order managers not to harass employees that do. Don't do nebulous HR policies that just end up confusing people. Make it so that people can take a couple of 2 week vacations a year without worrying about their jobs, that would help too.
- dglass 11y ago
  "Netflix is probably..." All you're doing is speculating. If people don't like these policies then they have the power to leave.
  - plonh 11y ago
    That is a contentless rebuttal. Obviously people choose among their options. That doesn't mean the options are optimal or efficient.
- jms703 11y ago
  I don't think you know what you're talking about. As one who works for a company with an unlimited policy, I'm enjoying it, taking full advantage, and am getting things done.
  - plonh 11y ago
    How do you define "full"?
swuecho 11y ago
when will there be a 'unlimited' salary?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
mattbee 11y ago
"We want employees to have the flexibility and confidence to balance the needs of their growing families without worrying about work or finances ... Each employee ... works with their managers for coverage during their absences." So, the conversation could be just "Hey manager as per the new policy, I would like to be a full-time mum / dad for the next 12 months; will you arrange cover for me?" Is that right, no questions asked? If Netflix's "unlimited vacation" policy actually meant that, they surely wouldn't need to publish a _second_ "unlimited" parental leave policy as well?
- foldor 11y ago
  Funny enough, in Canada 1 year maternity leave is the standard for mothers. Paternity leave is less common, but it can usually be split from the mothers amount, or used in total if she doesn't work.
- CrankyFool 11y ago
  I'm a hiring manager at Netflix. If one of my employees told me "I'm going to take the year off, see you in a year," I'd basically go "OK, have a great time with your kids. Send us a picture every once in a while." And then I'd backfill them. And when they got back, I'd have an extra engineer. Chances are by that point I'll be looking to expand the team anyway.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    How about if it was, "I just had a kid, so I'm going to stay home to raise them, and I'll be back in 18 years, assuming they get into college"?
    - plonh 11y ago
      TFA says the policy is 1 year paid leave, with an option to work (toward promotion/bonus, i assume). not unlimited. Calling it unlimited is just nonsense.
      - mikeash 11y ago
lowglow 11y ago
This is what I think of Unlimited vacation or otherwise: There should first be a mandatory vacation time, then an unlimited option beyond this mandatory time. Plain and simple.
- CrankyFool 11y ago
  I would find a mandatory vacation to be intrusively big-brotherish and -- while I can't guarantee I wouldn't work at a place that required it -- it'd be an overall negative in my retention. I'm a fully-formed adult. How about letting me manage my time off?
dglass 11y ago
I don't get all the backlash in these comments around the "unlimited" policies. Do any of the people opposing the unlimited policies have them in place at their own company? I've had unlimited vacation at my last two companies. I've seen it abused as my previous employer but it's worked out great at my current job. I'm not "peer pressured" by my other coworkers like everyone here seems to think I would be. As long as I get my work done on time my manager let's me take a day off here and there for a long weekend. I tend to take friday's every once in a while for a weekend vacation. I'm leaving for 2.5 weeks pretty soon for an international vacation. It's just easier on everyone. HR doesn't have to track how many days people are taking off and my manager and I don't spend time coordinating time off either. I simply put it in my calendar with enough notice and everyone is happy. Why does everyone seem to think unlimited vacation forces people to "conform to peer pressure" and to work harder than they normally would?
- s0uthPaw88 11y ago
  Some reports of companies where a change to unlimited vacation caused employees to take less time off: 1. http://www.paperplanes.de/2014/12/10/from-open-to-minimum-vacation-policy.html http://www.paperplanes.de/2014/12/10/from-open-to-minimum-va... 2. http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/07/14/unlimited_vacation_time_this_company_tried_it_and_it_was_a_total_failure.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/07/14/unlimited_vac...
- resu_nimda 11y ago
  I'm not "peer pressured" by my other coworkers like everyone here seems to think I would be. As long as I get my work done on time my manager let's me take a day off here and there for a long weekend. The peer pressure is usually not explicit, it's implied by the ambiguity of the policy and the (unknown to you) true expectations from management. How do you know that your vacation time isn't secretly being counted against you? What if other people aren't comfortable taking it because they want a good performance review? This was definitely happening at the mid-size enterprise shop I used to work at where they couldn't wait to jump on the Unlimited PTO fad because they knew people would end up taking less. It's definitely anti-employee unless the company aggressively demonstrates that it's ok to take as much PTO as you like. With a more definite PTO policy, you don't have this issue as much. Plus, it's just dumb and kind of insulting. It's not "unlimited," everyone knows that. Just set a reasonable policy so people don't have to guess.
relix42 11y ago
I've seen quite a few reactions to the Netflix unlimited PTO policy that are similar to the reactions to the new Maternity and Paternity policy. Many of these opinions are the likes of: * "I'm suspicious of this." * "No one takes any vacation at Netflix because of this." * "Unlimited == None" * "Peer pressure means that everyone works 52 weeks a year." * "Without a PTO policy you can't cash out unused vacation. This is a rip off." The thing I haven't seen in these statements are "I work at Netflix and this is what it is really like"... Here we go - I work at Netflix (as an engineer) and this is what is really like: * I'm pressured to take vacations. * Managers are taught that they are examples to the teams therefore they must take regular vacations. * I take more vacation now than I did when I had 2/3/4/5 weeks a year of stated, paid, vacation. Questions I've answered about this: * Does my team fall apart when someone leaves for 4 weeks? No. They're adults and they know how to prepare to be away for a while. * People must raise their eyebrows at you when you leave! No. * You get called all the time right so you keep your laptop with you on vacation? No. They're adults and they know how to get along without me for a while. * You must do tons of extra work when people go on vacation! No. People don't just drop stuff and run. They prepare, get stuff ready, postpone things until they're back, etc. * Managers must "encourage" you not to take vacations. Nope, opposite. * You feel irresponsible taking time off then. No I don't. * People must leave for months a time right? The policy gets really abused! No, stop it. Assuming the extreme case must be the common case is silly. You're smarter than that. * This can't possibly be true. You're a liar/shill/idiot! Next. * This doesn't/can't work at my company. Therefore, it can't work at yours! Netflix corporate culture is likely very different than your company. Take a look at the culture deck presentation. This type of policy likely can't work everywhere. It may not work everywhere in the valley. It does work here. [edit] formatting fail
- jms703 11y ago
  Thanks for posting this. I work at a place with a similar policy and in my experience, it's exactly as you describe.
- abalone 11y ago
  > I take more vacation now than I did when I had 2/3/4/5 weeks a year So, does that mean you take more than 5 weeks per year?
aianus 11y ago
I don't see why it's your employer's job to subsidize the birth of your children with paid maternity/paternity leave. Why not just pay everyone more and those who want children can use the extra to save up to take a year off work?
- phil248 11y ago
  In most countries (that you'd want to raise a family in), it is the job of the government to ensure employers make allowances for child rearing - an activity some consider indispensable.
  - aianus 11y ago
    Why doesn't the government pay for the maternity/paternity leave? It doesn't make any sense that it's Netflix's responsibility.
- ambicapter 11y ago
  Because they recognize that finding a job while having to take care of a 1 year old is a bit stressful, I think.
  - aianus 11y ago
    They could offer a year's unpaid sabbatical to their employees, parents or not.
- alexashka 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy Basically this. Why not just be open about it - those who don't end up working for the 'top' companies are at a considerable disadvantage. This gives the power to these big corporations to bully their way around in all sorts of ways. The ridiculous Google hiring process is just one example of this.
- shostack 11y ago
  Because in a down economy where jobs are hard to come by and corporations take advantage of employees any which way they can, this results in people being forced to choose between having a kid or keeping their job. Some see that as a form of slavery or extreme control, and they want the government to step in to prevent that. Further, if companies didn't have to pay for that, that disproportionately means that lower-income workers may not be able to have kids while higher earners can because they can afford day care, only having one working parent, etc. That goes down a whole discrimination rabbit hole. That said, while I am on the side of enforced maternity/paternity minimums, I respect that it is a complicated issue. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if this impacts the hiring of young women by startups. It wouldn't be entirely illogical to assume that a young woman has a higher likelihood of taking extended time off due to maternity leave. For an early-stage startup, that can be their death if a key employee leaves for several months.
exacube 11y ago
In contrast, I hear Amazon has no paternity leave (or maybe its like 2 days or something?)
eevilspock 11y ago
This is a laudable policy and I truly respect Netflix for doing it. But the sad truth is that the people who need this most are those on minimum wage or less, or those treated as "contract workers" so their employer can keep an even bigger cut of profits (e.g. Uber). In other words the Mathew Effect in our economy and society is further reinforced. The Mathew Effect is "the other invisible hand", except that it is insidious rather than virtuous. And unlike Adam Smith's invisible hand, it is most often ignored or trivialized, if not outright denied, by pure free-market adherents.
tomp 11y ago
> With this in mind, today we’re introducing an unlimited leave policy for new moms and dads that allows them to take off as much time as they want during the first year after a child’s birth or adoption. (emphasis mine) "Unlimited", as in "unlimited data until 1GB". Fascinating. What Netflix calls "unlimited" just means "normal" in a lot of Europe.

130 points by domdip 11y ago

"With this in mind, today we’re introducing an unlimited leave policy for new moms and dads that allows them to take off as much time as they want during the first year after a child’s birth or adoption" Ah, unlimited for a year. So no taking 30 years off after your child is born then.

Retric 11y ago
Mind you, Netflix has an unlimited time off policy, but today’s policy update is a clear reminder that the company wants the best talent. I suspect many of these simply end up as less formal polices. However, there are large benefits to allowing for extended leave which few Americans actually use. It’s bad enough that some companies require people to take at least 2 weeks off every year.
- greggyb 11y ago
  My company has a policy requiring that individuals take at least one contiguous week of time off a year.
adrice727 11y ago
There's always a catch.
- Dylan16807 11y ago
  That's not a catch. This is unlimited maternity and paternity leave. If you don't have a new child it's not maternity and paternity leave anymore, it's just leave.
izend 11y ago
So basically what Canadians and Europeans get?
- someear 11y ago
  It's paid by the government over there, not the company. Not sure about different places in Europe, but it's also not paid at 100% (at least in Canada)
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - foldor 11y ago
    As far as I'm aware in Canada you get 60% of your pay for a full year while on maternity leave. Many companies contribute the other 40% for at least 6 months of that time.
  - wesd 11y ago
    In Canada, if you're on maternity/paternity leave, you're on Employment Insurance. The maximum insurable amount is 49K or 55% of your earnings. Maximum payout is around 28K per year.
ars 11y ago
> So no taking 30 years off after your child is born then. That's simple - just keep having children. Time it right and you can take off permanently for decades.
- Cadsby 11y ago
  And yet virtually no ones does this.
  - eitally 11y ago
    After the first one or two most people start to fully understands the downsides of such a proposition.
  - alialkhatib 11y ago
    A friend has 6 kids and I'm beginning to wonder what his company's pat/mat policy is...
kethinov 11y ago
You've got to wonder what would happen if someone tried to take that full year off, then was fired for taking "too much" of their "unlimited (up to a year)" time off after having a child.
- Spoom 11y ago
  If they're an at-will employee in the US, probably nothing.

ejcx 11y ago

That seems great. Is there any protection from abuse? It seems that one could say "See you next year" with this and get a year-long vacation. Is that accurate. Would that actually work? Is there any contract saying you won't take your year off and quit on your last day? OR is this all hinging on you getting a continued workload complete, and not just a year vacation.

ryoshu 11y ago
Having a newborn is not a year long vacation. While it's possible that some employees could abuse a year of maternity/paternity leave by quitting after the one year term, I imagine this move will greatly increase company loyalty amongst new, potential and existing parents.
- Yakimoto 11y ago
  Having a newborn isn't a task put against you. You elected for it. Don't perpetuate the idea that some credit is owed to parents as if it's not a year long vacation.
  - ryoshu 11y ago
    Nowhere did I say it was a task put against you or that something is owed to parents. This is a perk being offered by the company, just like free lunches or monthly team outings. It's a very attractive perk for couples looking to have a family and will like engender loyalty within that cohort.
InclinedPlane 11y ago
In practice it's unlikely to be a problem. Step 1 is that you just avoid hiring people who aren't intrinsically motivated anyway. The rest pretty much takes care of itself.
rquantz 11y ago
A year of maternity or paternity leave would be pretty reasonable, I think. Taking the full year would not be abuse, it would be following the letter of the policy.

Osmium 11y ago

Congratulations Netflix. I'm personally a big believer that equal maternity and paternity leave is crucial for future equality in the workforce, and Netflix have just set a great example to the rest of the industry. And a full year is excellent too. Hopefully other employers will take notice, or even better it becomes a legal requirement. Why it isn't already in some countries[1] continues to mystify–to my mind, a business should not be considered successful unless it can afford to, and does, treat its employees like human beings. [1] I say "some countries" but really it's only the United States and Papua New Guinea that haven't made it a legal requirement to have some form of paid maternity leave, among countries where data is available (e.g. North Korea isn't listed). Oman used to be in that list, but they left in 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave and http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_242615.pdf http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcom...

icebraining 11y ago
Saying "the US" is usually not helpful here, since many of these issues are simply not legislated at the national/federal level. Some states do have paid leave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternity_leave_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Paid_maternity_leave_by_state.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternity_leave_in_the_United_...
- Osmium 11y ago
  It's very encouraging to see some states have it, but an awful lot of that map is blank... I did see a news article recently about the Navy being quite progressive in this regard though (recently tripling its maternity leave time), which is also encouraging.
- rosser 11y ago
  GP is talking about parity between maternity and paternity leave. Citing statistics about the existence (or, as is demonstrably more common, non-existence) of maternity leave is pretty orthogonal to that. Unless you're claiming that the fact that most states don't offer any paid maternity leave (and almost certainly no paid paternity leave, either) counts as the kind of parity the GP was arguing for, I guess.

hughes 11y ago

I'm glad to see paternity leave included and given equal weight to maternity. So many employers don't offer this important benefit.

dragonwriter 11y ago
> I'm glad to see paternity leave included and given equal weight to maternity. So many employers don't offer this important benefit. Really? What employer doesn't offer family leave on equal terms? Certainly, this used to be quite common, but every place I've seen for many years has explicitly been equal.
- rmordoff 11y ago
  The link references an article about yahoo that states yahoo and google give more time off for maternity leave (the article is from 2013 so it may have changed since then). "Yahoo will give mothers after the birth of a child from 8 weeks to 16 weeks. Fathers of newborns will get 8 weeks paid leave. Google gives mothers five months off and fathers seven weeks off." http://www.businessinsider.com/marissa-mayer-doubles-the-length-of-yahoos-paid-maternity-leave-gives-new-dads-eight-weeks-off-2013-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/marissa-mayer-doubles-the-len...
  - raldi 11y ago
    Google gives non-birth-mother parents 12 weeks of paid parental leave if they're the primary or equal caregiver during that time. For example, if you work at Google and both you and your wife work full time, and then she has a baby (or you adopt) and you'd like to both stay home to be equal caregivers, you get 12 weeks of paid leave with basically no questions asked.

quietplatypus 11y ago

The way this is going to pan out, is that the House Slaves and Tools who love to crab bucket and compete with others will not take any maternity/paternity leave, and politically push out those who would take a reasonable amount of leave. To be fair, of course the others would still be paid during this, but they will have to move to another company and take a hit in reputation. So in the end, this is either great news for people with crab bucket mentalities, or for everyone else, a great way to get a year-long severance while finding a better place to work.

caoilte 11y ago

Unlimited leave policies encourage employees to self-police and conform to peer pressure. At a place like Netflix I can imagine the result being that people end up taking less than the industry average. A better gimmick would be if Netflix picked one of the Nordics and announced that they were going to adopt all of the social policies provided by that country's government.

Osmium 11y ago
> Unlimited leave policies encourage employees to self-police and conform to peer pressure. I'm sympathetic to your concerns, but this is still a good thing and–importantly–a very good step in the right direction. Playing devil's advocate a little, but this "peer pressure" idea seems to come with paid vacation too. I think, to an extent, it's peoples own responsibility to resist this peer pressure, rather than the company's. I would always take paid vacation on principle, for example. If you don't want me to take it, don't offer it to me–and if you don't offer it to me, I'll take a job somewhere else, thank you. I'm quite happy for the quality of my work to be judged on its own merits. Which is not to say it's easy to do if you're working at a company with an entrenched culture of abusive expectations. But we only become complicit in it if we give into peer pressure rather than asserting our rights, no? That said, I say this from the privileged position of living in a country where taking paid vacation is expected, so perhaps it's easy for me to say...
kelukelugames 11y ago
I agree. This is Netflix we are talking about.
danudey 11y ago
> I can imagine the result being that people end up taking less than the industry average The industry average in the US is abysmal though. Yahoo 'doubled' theirs to 16 weeks, which is 1/3 of Canada's (and many other countries') legally mandated minimum. Taking double the industry average would still be abysmal by global standards.
- deleted 11y ago
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cldellow 11y ago

Doesn't Netflix already offer unlimited vacation? Parental leave isn't vacation, of course, but the cynic in me thinks this is another example of a case where a corporation can benevolently offer the moon while replying on peer pressure to ensure that no employee accepts what is on offer to anywhere near its fullest extent. Does Netflix publish any stats about vacation usage?

giaour 11y ago
Isn't part of their unlimited vacation perk a promise not to track how much vacation you use?
- CrankyFool 11y ago
  It's not explicit, but as I noted above that generally ends up being the case. Most other managers here with whom I've talked consider tracking vacation usage ... suspect and worrisome. It feels icky, so we don't do it.
e40 11y ago
Does Netflix publish any stats about vacation usage? I would love to see stats. I doubt they'll publish them. If people use less vacation than they used to (before the policy went into effect), then they would take a negative PR hit for it. If they used more than before, then it might encourage other employees to do the same.
svachalek 11y ago
Although the word "unlimited" gets thrown around in casual usage, of course no company is going to pay you forever if you never show up for a day of work. You've still got to get your job done at a high level perspective (say quarterly) but the idea is that management is not tracking every hour you show up to work or decide to take off; they're looking at results not attendance. In that light I'm reading this as essentially setting the expectations bar very low, potentially to nothing, for a year. Basically this policy and pretty much all of Netflix's policies come down to behaving like a professional and treating other people with the same expectations. If you lose that culture and either side starts to misbehave of course things could go very badly. But that culture is very important to Netflix and they are always working consciously to preserve it. I haven't seen any official stats about vacation (as someone else pointed out, in order to do that they'd have to track it) but I've never known anyone to have a problem with it. I've seen quite a few people take 3 weeks or so at a time because they're going overseas, and in Silicon Valley that's pretty unheard of. Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, I don't speak for the company, yada, yada. I'm just a rank and file employee interpreting what I know.

SweetPotato 11y ago

This is a step in right direction. "The United States remains the only member of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, or OECD, that does not guarantee mothers any paid time off from work after the birth of a new child. (see Figure 1) In fact, the United States is one of only four countries in the world—along with Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Papua New Guinea—where workers do not have the right to paid maternity leave." http://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/IWD_PaidLeave_fig1.png http://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/I...

SweetPotato 11y ago

just to reinforce the point: "United States is one of only four countries in the world—along with Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Papua New Guinea—where workers do not have the right to paid maternity leave." How is this possible great USA?

ghughes 11y ago

I'm highly suspicious of "unlimited" vacation or leave policies because the line between reasonable and not is still there, it's just way less visible and ultimately arbitrary, depending on your management chain and workload. I can't wait for this fad to die. Let's just have generous, well-defined leave policies that don't put the onus on the employee to figure out what is OK and what isn't. "Experience shows people perform better at work when they’re not worrying about home." People also perform better at work when they're not worrying about repercussions for being seen to abuse their "unlimited" leave.

rezistik 11y ago
I think unlimited with a minimum is really the solution. Without a minimum people are reluctant to take time off from what I've seen and read.
- wilg 11y ago
  I agree. Though, where I work we have unlimited vacation and there definitely seems to be peer encouragement to take _more_ vacation, not less.
  - ghughes 11y ago
    I'd expect it to work much better when there's an unlimited vacation policy from the start and the founders make a determined effort to push the culture in that direction.
- michaelchisari 11y ago
  I've seen places that have that minimum be mandatory. As in, if you haven't taken a vacation by a certain time, they will insist, even go so far as restricting access until the vacation is over. The great thing about a mandatory minimum (never thought I'd be saying those words), is that it doesn't allow someone to over work themselves into a frenzy, making everyone else look lazy, while simultaneously burning themselves out.
  - 11y ago

mullen 11y ago

This is dumb. As others have pointed out, all it does is use peer pressure to decide what the "proper amount" of Paternity Leave is. Netflix is probably such a pressure cooker that when people need to and want to take Paternity Leave, they won't take it for fear of upsetting the group and losing their jobs. Managers will abuse it just to keep productivity up. Want to be a progressive company? Clearly define how long Paternity Leave is, make it generous, tell employees to take it and order managers not to harass employees that do. Don't do nebulous HR policies that just end up confusing people. Make it so that people can take a couple of 2 week vacations a year without worrying about their jobs, that would help too.

dglass 11y ago
"Netflix is probably..." All you're doing is speculating. If people don't like these policies then they have the power to leave.
- plonh 11y ago
  That is a contentless rebuttal. Obviously people choose among their options. That doesn't mean the options are optimal or efficient.
jms703 11y ago
I don't think you know what you're talking about. As one who works for a company with an unlimited policy, I'm enjoying it, taking full advantage, and am getting things done.
- plonh 11y ago
  How do you define "full"?

swuecho 11y ago

when will there be a 'unlimited' salary?

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

mattbee 11y ago

"We want employees to have the flexibility and confidence to balance the needs of their growing families without worrying about work or finances ... Each employee ... works with their managers for coverage during their absences." So, the conversation could be just "Hey manager as per the new policy, I would like to be a full-time mum / dad for the next 12 months; will you arrange cover for me?" Is that right, no questions asked? If Netflix's "unlimited vacation" policy actually meant that, they surely wouldn't need to publish a _second_ "unlimited" parental leave policy as well?

foldor 11y ago
Funny enough, in Canada 1 year maternity leave is the standard for mothers. Paternity leave is less common, but it can usually be split from the mothers amount, or used in total if she doesn't work.
CrankyFool 11y ago
I'm a hiring manager at Netflix. If one of my employees told me "I'm going to take the year off, see you in a year," I'd basically go "OK, have a great time with your kids. Send us a picture every once in a while." And then I'd backfill them. And when they got back, I'd have an extra engineer. Chances are by that point I'll be looking to expand the team anyway.
- mikeash 11y ago
  How about if it was, "I just had a kid, so I'm going to stay home to raise them, and I'll be back in 18 years, assuming they get into college"?
  - plonh 11y ago
    TFA says the policy is 1 year paid leave, with an option to work (toward promotion/bonus, i assume). not unlimited. Calling it unlimited is just nonsense.
    - mikeash 11y ago

lowglow 11y ago

This is what I think of Unlimited vacation or otherwise: There should first be a mandatory vacation time, then an unlimited option beyond this mandatory time. Plain and simple.

CrankyFool 11y ago
I would find a mandatory vacation to be intrusively big-brotherish and -- while I can't guarantee I wouldn't work at a place that required it -- it'd be an overall negative in my retention. I'm a fully-formed adult. How about letting me manage my time off?

dglass 11y ago

I don't get all the backlash in these comments around the "unlimited" policies. Do any of the people opposing the unlimited policies have them in place at their own company? I've had unlimited vacation at my last two companies. I've seen it abused as my previous employer but it's worked out great at my current job. I'm not "peer pressured" by my other coworkers like everyone here seems to think I would be. As long as I get my work done on time my manager let's me take a day off here and there for a long weekend. I tend to take friday's every once in a while for a weekend vacation. I'm leaving for 2.5 weeks pretty soon for an international vacation. It's just easier on everyone. HR doesn't have to track how many days people are taking off and my manager and I don't spend time coordinating time off either. I simply put it in my calendar with enough notice and everyone is happy. Why does everyone seem to think unlimited vacation forces people to "conform to peer pressure" and to work harder than they normally would?

s0uthPaw88 11y ago
Some reports of companies where a change to unlimited vacation caused employees to take less time off: 1. http://www.paperplanes.de/2014/12/10/from-open-to-minimum-vacation-policy.html http://www.paperplanes.de/2014/12/10/from-open-to-minimum-va... 2. http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/07/14/unlimited_vacation_time_this_company_tried_it_and_it_was_a_total_failure.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/07/14/unlimited_vac...
resu_nimda 11y ago
I'm not "peer pressured" by my other coworkers like everyone here seems to think I would be. As long as I get my work done on time my manager let's me take a day off here and there for a long weekend. The peer pressure is usually not explicit, it's implied by the ambiguity of the policy and the (unknown to you) true expectations from management. How do you know that your vacation time isn't secretly being counted against you? What if other people aren't comfortable taking it because they want a good performance review? This was definitely happening at the mid-size enterprise shop I used to work at where they couldn't wait to jump on the Unlimited PTO fad because they knew people would end up taking less. It's definitely anti-employee unless the company aggressively demonstrates that it's ok to take as much PTO as you like. With a more definite PTO policy, you don't have this issue as much. Plus, it's just dumb and kind of insulting. It's not "unlimited," everyone knows that. Just set a reasonable policy so people don't have to guess.

relix42 11y ago

I've seen quite a few reactions to the Netflix unlimited PTO policy that are similar to the reactions to the new Maternity and Paternity policy. Many of these opinions are the likes of: * "I'm suspicious of this." * "No one takes any vacation at Netflix because of this." * "Unlimited == None" * "Peer pressure means that everyone works 52 weeks a year." * "Without a PTO policy you can't cash out unused vacation. This is a rip off." The thing I haven't seen in these statements are "I work at Netflix and this is what it is really like"... Here we go - I work at Netflix (as an engineer) and this is what is really like: * I'm pressured to take vacations. * Managers are taught that they are examples to the teams therefore they must take regular vacations. * I take more vacation now than I did when I had 2/3/4/5 weeks a year of stated, paid, vacation. Questions I've answered about this: * Does my team fall apart when someone leaves for 4 weeks? No. They're adults and they know how to prepare to be away for a while. * People must raise their eyebrows at you when you leave! No. * You get called all the time right so you keep your laptop with you on vacation? No. They're adults and they know how to get along without me for a while. * You must do tons of extra work when people go on vacation! No. People don't just drop stuff and run. They prepare, get stuff ready, postpone things until they're back, etc. * Managers must "encourage" you not to take vacations. Nope, opposite. * You feel irresponsible taking time off then. No I don't. * People must leave for months a time right? The policy gets really abused! No, stop it. Assuming the extreme case must be the common case is silly. You're smarter than that. * This can't possibly be true. You're a liar/shill/idiot! Next. * This doesn't/can't work at my company. Therefore, it can't work at yours! Netflix corporate culture is likely very different than your company. Take a look at the culture deck presentation. This type of policy likely can't work everywhere. It may not work everywhere in the valley. It does work here. [edit] formatting fail

jms703 11y ago
Thanks for posting this. I work at a place with a similar policy and in my experience, it's exactly as you describe.
abalone 11y ago
> I take more vacation now than I did when I had 2/3/4/5 weeks a year So, does that mean you take more than 5 weeks per year?

aianus 11y ago

I don't see why it's your employer's job to subsidize the birth of your children with paid maternity/paternity leave. Why not just pay everyone more and those who want children can use the extra to save up to take a year off work?

phil248 11y ago
In most countries (that you'd want to raise a family in), it is the job of the government to ensure employers make allowances for child rearing - an activity some consider indispensable.
- aianus 11y ago
  Why doesn't the government pay for the maternity/paternity leave? It doesn't make any sense that it's Netflix's responsibility.
ambicapter 11y ago
Because they recognize that finding a job while having to take care of a 1 year old is a bit stressful, I think.
- aianus 11y ago
  They could offer a year's unpaid sabbatical to their employees, parents or not.
alexashka 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy Basically this. Why not just be open about it - those who don't end up working for the 'top' companies are at a considerable disadvantage. This gives the power to these big corporations to bully their way around in all sorts of ways. The ridiculous Google hiring process is just one example of this.
shostack 11y ago
Because in a down economy where jobs are hard to come by and corporations take advantage of employees any which way they can, this results in people being forced to choose between having a kid or keeping their job. Some see that as a form of slavery or extreme control, and they want the government to step in to prevent that. Further, if companies didn't have to pay for that, that disproportionately means that lower-income workers may not be able to have kids while higher earners can because they can afford day care, only having one working parent, etc. That goes down a whole discrimination rabbit hole. That said, while I am on the side of enforced maternity/paternity minimums, I respect that it is a complicated issue. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if this impacts the hiring of young women by startups. It wouldn't be entirely illogical to assume that a young woman has a higher likelihood of taking extended time off due to maternity leave. For an early-stage startup, that can be their death if a key employee leaves for several months.

exacube 11y ago

In contrast, I hear Amazon has no paternity leave (or maybe its like 2 days or something?)

eevilspock 11y ago

This is a laudable policy and I truly respect Netflix for doing it. But the sad truth is that the people who need this most are those on minimum wage or less, or those treated as "contract workers" so their employer can keep an even bigger cut of profits (e.g. Uber). In other words the Mathew Effect in our economy and society is further reinforced. The Mathew Effect is "the other invisible hand", except that it is insidious rather than virtuous. And unlike Adam Smith's invisible hand, it is most often ignored or trivialized, if not outright denied, by pure free-market adherents.

tomp 11y ago

> With this in mind, today we’re introducing an unlimited leave policy for new moms and dads that allows them to take off as much time as they want during the first year after a child’s birth or adoption. (emphasis mine) "Unlimited", as in "unlimited data until 1GB". Fascinating. What Netflix calls "unlimited" just means "normal" in a lot of Europe.