12 ms·

German prosecutor sacked over Netzpolitik treason probe

146 points by t23 11y ago

sitkack 11y ago
;)
vog 11y ago
> The state investigation, into two journalists at Netzpolitik.org, is currently paused. This is wrong. The investigation was never paused. Last week the prosecutor did claim he would pause the investigation, but that was a misleading claim from the very beginning - with the sole purpose to calm the public. Although that didn't work out (the demonstrations happened nevertheless), it achieved some strange success: The media keep repeating and repeating that, despite having no evidence that anything was ever paused. The only "pause" that exists is that the investigation is currently waiting for an assessment ("Gutachten"). However, that is normal part of the investigation and would have happened anyway. So this is "waiting" (passive), not "pausing" (active). The prosecutor didn't do anything here to pause the investigation.
- DasIch 11y ago
  Given that Maas apparently intented to kill the Gutachten on Friday, I think it's fair to assume that the investigation is not continuing or even merely paused. It's definitely dead now. The next prosecutor would have to be extraordinarily stupid to get involved in this affair any further than required to put an official stop to the investigation.
  - vog 11y ago
    Still, it is interesting that even German media keep talking about the "pause" that never existed. I really hope that the investigation will be dropped officially. If it will mere be discontinued and put on ice, this would have a really bad psychological effect on Markus and André. Even if it is 99.999% sure that they won't face any repression, having the investigation dropped would be a clear cut, and enable them to be truly relieved.
    - thaumasiotes 11y ago
      What's the difference between discontinuing it and dropping it? If it's officially dropped, does that prevent a later prosecutor from restarting it? In the US you'd need a declaratory judgment to deal with the threat of "legal action at some later point". But I think that's a civil law concept -- I have no idea how that would go in criminal law.
  - rostigerpudel 11y ago
    The Generalbundesanwalt (Public Prosecutor General, GBA) is a civil servant bound by his superior's orders. That is why he can always be retired instantly by the Minister of Justice (§54 BBG). So yes, it is extraordinarily stupid for a GBA to against his orders. In this case, however, I think Range actually wanted to be retired. He has taken so much fire over his apparently incompetent statements relating to NSA spying (among others he confused NSA and NASA on multiple occasions) that he probably wanted to get out of what is otherwise a fairly quiet job. In particular since there is pretty much nothing to gain anymore in this case.
    - DasIch 11y ago
      I completely agree. Range has completely mishandled the NSA situation but he isn't stupid. It's obvious that this would get him retired and doing it this way was decent attempt at stopping this whole affair and does his colleagues a favor.
- toyg 11y ago
  There is probably a subtext we are missing. Sacking the chief will not immediately stop the prosecution (otherwise, all prosecutions would be dropped now!), I bet it will actually be paused and quietly resumed in a few weeks, in a more subdued tone. This has probably been used as a good occasion to get rid of an old entrenched player who thought he was untouchable, being a few months from retirement. Paranoia tinfoil theory: Ronge was blackmailed by German spooks to hold the line for them, no matter what. Better to lose a year of pension than your reputation...
  - anfedorov 11y ago
    Non-paranoia theory: the state wants to make an empty gesture to appease the unruly masses upset about unpopular laws without actually changing them. What a show! Granted, I am not familiar with German systems for changing laws, but if we doesn't like prosecutors enforcing unjust laws, we should change the laws to make publishing state secrets legal in limited cases (e.g. when it serves a public good), not make show of firing a prosecutor who is enforcing laws and about to retire anyway. It simply isn't wise to rely on prosecutorial discretion for justice to persevere over unjust laws, as that's simply not their role in the judicial system.
    - creshal 11y ago
      > I am not familiar with German systems for changing laws After 16 years of Kohl fiddling his thumbs and 10 years of Merkel glueing hers together, I'm not sure Germans are any more.
    - tormeh 11y ago
      Well, Range was strangely un-eager in his investigations in the NSA scandal. There's something wrong here that is independent of the law.
      - anfedorov 11y ago
        I imagine the NSA is a sophisticated enough actor that prosecuting anyone related to them would be pretty futile. We can certainly wish that everyone be equal under the law regardless of resources, but that's simply not the case in practice.
- kaybe 11y ago
  http://istdasverfahrengegennetzpolitikschoneingestel.lt/ http://istdasverfahrengegennetzpolitikschoneingestel.lt/ Discontinuing is not the same as pausing, but hey.
themartorana 11y ago
Part of me starts to think this is the difference between having press freedoms outlined in a constitution, vs them being tolerated by the whim of the acting government, but then I look at the U.S. and the prosecution of reporters and whistle blowers and realize how tenuous press freedoms really are - anywhere.
- luchs 11y ago
  Press freedom is part of the German Grundgesetz (the constitution) as well, so there's really no difference here.
  - eru 11y ago
    The German Grundgesetz even puts all those basic rights right at the beginning and not just in the amendments.
    - Aloha 11y ago
      This strikes me as a weasel worded statement. The Bill of Rights was conceived along side the constitution and kept out of the original constitution largely for political reasons relating to getting a very contentious document approved by the required minimum number of states for passage.
      - DasIch 11y ago
        What's important in particular about having those rights at the "beginning" of the Grundgesetz is that the first 20 articles are immutable and cannot be changed unlike the latter parts of the constitution.
        germanier 11y ago
        This is not true. Only articles 1 and 20 can't be changed. For the rest in between no such guarantee applies and they were changed a few times in the past. Though most likely restricting any of the freedoms severely would be ruled unconstitutional by the very first article.
notNow 11y ago
It looks like that Germany is in the midst of some low intensity power struggle between many factions within the political system whether intelligence agencies, Merkel's govt, the judiciary and finally the press.
- tobltobs 11y ago
  That is how it is supposed to be, isn't it? Always trying to find a balance between those opposing factions. Not like the US where all have capitulated against the intelligence agencies.
  - mschuster91 11y ago
    Ahahaha. Just look at the NSU neonazi shithole if the ass-kissing to the NSA doesn't show you enough, we Germans have capitulated to our and FVEY secret services too.
    - allendoerfer 11y ago
      The difference seems to be, that the US agencies are causing more damage, because they are actually competent at what they are doing, while the German agencies are happy whenever they are invited to play with the big toys - thus the ass-kissing. I think the reason for this is mainly less budget partly due to the fact, that the German agencies are often not federal agencies, e.g. each tiny state has their own Verfassungsschutz. I mean, the NSU affair was really bad, but incompetent-criminals-bad not secret-state-government-bad.
      - PythonicAlpha 11y ago
        The NSU case is rather different. I have difficulties to see how all belongs together, but I am also not sure, that incompetency is the only problem. We in Germany have a long history of blind eyes on right-wing criminality. I think, at least it is often covered, for prestige reasons.
- PythonicAlpha 11y ago
itistoday2 11y ago
The United States should take a cue from them.
- trhway 11y ago
  going to a demonstration in US could easily result in arrest and misdemeanor charges - big no-no if you want to get/stay in the middle class and continue having good jobs. It is a puritan society in its foundation.
  - coreyoconnor 11y ago
    I don't know why you were downvoted. This is a nice summary.
perlgeek 11y ago
Just to reiterate something the article mentions, though the title doesn't make it clear: Range (the prosecutor) was sacked not for the prosecution itself, but for accusing the minister of justice of interfering with the prosecution. Range had plenty of material to cover his ass for the prosecution itself, including an expertise that the leaked material was indeed state secret, the fact that the ministry knew about the investigation, and a solid initial suspicion.

146 points by t23 11y ago

;)

vog 11y ago

> The state investigation, into two journalists at Netzpolitik.org, is currently paused. This is wrong. The investigation was never paused. Last week the prosecutor did claim he would pause the investigation, but that was a misleading claim from the very beginning - with the sole purpose to calm the public. Although that didn't work out (the demonstrations happened nevertheless), it achieved some strange success: The media keep repeating and repeating that, despite having no evidence that anything was ever paused. The only "pause" that exists is that the investigation is currently waiting for an assessment ("Gutachten"). However, that is normal part of the investigation and would have happened anyway. So this is "waiting" (passive), not "pausing" (active). The prosecutor didn't do anything here to pause the investigation.

DasIch 11y ago
Given that Maas apparently intented to kill the Gutachten on Friday, I think it's fair to assume that the investigation is not continuing or even merely paused. It's definitely dead now. The next prosecutor would have to be extraordinarily stupid to get involved in this affair any further than required to put an official stop to the investigation.
- vog 11y ago
  Still, it is interesting that even German media keep talking about the "pause" that never existed. I really hope that the investigation will be dropped officially. If it will mere be discontinued and put on ice, this would have a really bad psychological effect on Markus and André. Even if it is 99.999% sure that they won't face any repression, having the investigation dropped would be a clear cut, and enable them to be truly relieved.
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    What's the difference between discontinuing it and dropping it? If it's officially dropped, does that prevent a later prosecutor from restarting it? In the US you'd need a declaratory judgment to deal with the threat of "legal action at some later point". But I think that's a civil law concept -- I have no idea how that would go in criminal law.
- rostigerpudel 11y ago
  The Generalbundesanwalt (Public Prosecutor General, GBA) is a civil servant bound by his superior's orders. That is why he can always be retired instantly by the Minister of Justice (§54 BBG). So yes, it is extraordinarily stupid for a GBA to against his orders. In this case, however, I think Range actually wanted to be retired. He has taken so much fire over his apparently incompetent statements relating to NSA spying (among others he confused NSA and NASA on multiple occasions) that he probably wanted to get out of what is otherwise a fairly quiet job. In particular since there is pretty much nothing to gain anymore in this case.
  - DasIch 11y ago
    I completely agree. Range has completely mishandled the NSA situation but he isn't stupid. It's obvious that this would get him retired and doing it this way was decent attempt at stopping this whole affair and does his colleagues a favor.
toyg 11y ago
There is probably a subtext we are missing. Sacking the chief will not immediately stop the prosecution (otherwise, all prosecutions would be dropped now!), I bet it will actually be paused and quietly resumed in a few weeks, in a more subdued tone. This has probably been used as a good occasion to get rid of an old entrenched player who thought he was untouchable, being a few months from retirement. Paranoia tinfoil theory: Ronge was blackmailed by German spooks to hold the line for them, no matter what. Better to lose a year of pension than your reputation...
- anfedorov 11y ago
  Non-paranoia theory: the state wants to make an empty gesture to appease the unruly masses upset about unpopular laws without actually changing them. What a show! Granted, I am not familiar with German systems for changing laws, but if we doesn't like prosecutors enforcing unjust laws, we should change the laws to make publishing state secrets legal in limited cases (e.g. when it serves a public good), not make show of firing a prosecutor who is enforcing laws and about to retire anyway. It simply isn't wise to rely on prosecutorial discretion for justice to persevere over unjust laws, as that's simply not their role in the judicial system.
  - creshal 11y ago
    > I am not familiar with German systems for changing laws After 16 years of Kohl fiddling his thumbs and 10 years of Merkel glueing hers together, I'm not sure Germans are any more.
  - tormeh 11y ago
    Well, Range was strangely un-eager in his investigations in the NSA scandal. There's something wrong here that is independent of the law.
    - anfedorov 11y ago
      I imagine the NSA is a sophisticated enough actor that prosecuting anyone related to them would be pretty futile. We can certainly wish that everyone be equal under the law regardless of resources, but that's simply not the case in practice.
kaybe 11y ago
http://istdasverfahrengegennetzpolitikschoneingestel.lt/ http://istdasverfahrengegennetzpolitikschoneingestel.lt/ Discontinuing is not the same as pausing, but hey.

themartorana 11y ago

Part of me starts to think this is the difference between having press freedoms outlined in a constitution, vs them being tolerated by the whim of the acting government, but then I look at the U.S. and the prosecution of reporters and whistle blowers and realize how tenuous press freedoms really are - anywhere.

luchs 11y ago
Press freedom is part of the German Grundgesetz (the constitution) as well, so there's really no difference here.
- eru 11y ago
  The German Grundgesetz even puts all those basic rights right at the beginning and not just in the amendments.
  - Aloha 11y ago
    This strikes me as a weasel worded statement. The Bill of Rights was conceived along side the constitution and kept out of the original constitution largely for political reasons relating to getting a very contentious document approved by the required minimum number of states for passage.
    - DasIch 11y ago
      What's important in particular about having those rights at the "beginning" of the Grundgesetz is that the first 20 articles are immutable and cannot be changed unlike the latter parts of the constitution.
      - germanier 11y ago
        This is not true. Only articles 1 and 20 can't be changed. For the rest in between no such guarantee applies and they were changed a few times in the past. Though most likely restricting any of the freedoms severely would be ruled unconstitutional by the very first article.

notNow 11y ago

It looks like that Germany is in the midst of some low intensity power struggle between many factions within the political system whether intelligence agencies, Merkel's govt, the judiciary and finally the press.

tobltobs 11y ago
That is how it is supposed to be, isn't it? Always trying to find a balance between those opposing factions. Not like the US where all have capitulated against the intelligence agencies.
- mschuster91 11y ago
  Ahahaha. Just look at the NSU neonazi shithole if the ass-kissing to the NSA doesn't show you enough, we Germans have capitulated to our and FVEY secret services too.
  - allendoerfer 11y ago
    The difference seems to be, that the US agencies are causing more damage, because they are actually competent at what they are doing, while the German agencies are happy whenever they are invited to play with the big toys - thus the ass-kissing. I think the reason for this is mainly less budget partly due to the fact, that the German agencies are often not federal agencies, e.g. each tiny state has their own Verfassungsschutz. I mean, the NSU affair was really bad, but incompetent-criminals-bad not secret-state-government-bad.
    - PythonicAlpha 11y ago
      The NSU case is rather different. I have difficulties to see how all belongs together, but I am also not sure, that incompetency is the only problem. We in Germany have a long history of blind eyes on right-wing criminality. I think, at least it is often covered, for prestige reasons.
PythonicAlpha 11y ago

itistoday2 11y ago

The United States should take a cue from them.

trhway 11y ago
going to a demonstration in US could easily result in arrest and misdemeanor charges - big no-no if you want to get/stay in the middle class and continue having good jobs. It is a puritan society in its foundation.
- coreyoconnor 11y ago
  I don't know why you were downvoted. This is a nice summary.

perlgeek 11y ago

Just to reiterate something the article mentions, though the title doesn't make it clear: Range (the prosecutor) was sacked not for the prosecution itself, but for accusing the minister of justice of interfering with the prosecution. Range had plenty of material to cover his ass for the prosecution itself, including an expertise that the leaked material was indeed state secret, the fact that the ministry knew about the investigation, and a solid initial suspicion.