4 ms·

How is that racism?

sampo 11y ago
In Europe, compared to US, 'racism' can have a bit different meaning. (Not that its nuances aren't debated inside US as well.)
- ajross 11y ago
  OK, I'll bite. How is that racism in Europe?
  - sampo 11y ago
    In general, the left side of the political spectrum has a much stronger part in politics, and discussion, in Europe, compared to US. Continental Europe even more than UK. (Which can make it more difficult to follow the discussions, as it is mostly in other languages than in English.) Consequently, they also have more influence on the use and definition of words and concept used in political debate. To get to the the heart of this, you probably would need to find a European leftist to talk with. I am writing this under the assumption that /u/igravious is one. Or, he could just be a bit of a jerk.
igravious 11y ago
Why shouldn't the largest economy in the world be able to produce high tech microprocessors? The suggestion that they'd be banning the export of Intel processors is dumb. The "Hilarious" is just icing. To me the whole comment smacks of racism. What would you call it? I knew I'd get down-voted for saying it, and I've held my tongue in the past. But it's nearly every article about China now. These sardonic off-the-cuff remarks. It's so accepted here, and it shouldn't be. So I'm calling it out.
- Frozenlock 11y ago
  That doesn't answer my question.
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  Just to be factual, China outside of Taiwan still lacks the ability/technology to fab a modern microprocessor using a competitive process. Fab technology is incredibly restricted, not just by governments but the companies themselves. China doesn't export CPU processors, they import from Intel like everyone else. I believe there is a fab in Singapore, but I'm not sure what generation they are at. There is a testing facility in chengdu, at least.
  - igravious 11y ago
    Intel, though globally important, are not the only game in town. This article suggests that there are numerous Chinese companies trying to make the grade: "Semiconductor Manufacturing International (SMIC), Shanghai Huali Microelectronics (HLMC), Shanghai HuaHong NEC Electronics Company (HHNEC), Grace Semiconductor Manufacturing and Advanced Semiconductor Manufacturing (ASMC)" http://qz.com/72542/china-just-surpassed-the-us-in-semiconductor-manufacturing-and-the-trend-is-likely-to-accelerate/ http://qz.com/72542/china-just-surpassed-the-us-in-semicondu... > "McKinsey’s proprietary research indicates that more than 50 percent of PCs, and between 30 and 40 percent of embedded systems (commonly found in automotive, commercial, consumer, industrial, and medical applications), contain content designed in China," http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/high_tech_telecoms_internet/semiconductors_in_china_brave_new_world_or_same_old_story http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/high_tech_telecoms_internet... > "Compared to 2008, consumption of semiconductor materials in North America is down $250 million to $4.74 billion, while in China consumption has shot up 42% to $5.07 billion."
    - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
      Sure, they are putting out cheap low-end chips that are getting used. But they are still way behind on process. I believe its 35-50 nm, while Intel, the Koreans, and the Taiwanese right now are at 14 nm. If you are building the world's fastest super computer, you are putting Intel or similarly fabbed chips in there...they are not putting their own chips in! Then there is also the problem of having their own designs to fab. There was a big scandal a few years back where the "native microprocessor" was actually based on an old design that some professor stole from a company in the states!
- ajross 11y ago
  Just to be clear, I didn't read that as a statement of abstract capability but of fact. China (still the second largest economy in the world by a large margin, btw) is not, in fact, capable of manufacturing leading edge microprocessors. They just don't have the fabs, nor industrial knowledge to build them. So if they want a supercomputer right now (or frankly at any point in the coming decade or so), they need to do it with chips fabbed in the west. So restricting "export" of that technology back to the west does seem kinda funny to me. No?
  - sampo 11y ago
    > China (still the second largest economy in the world by a large margin, btw) What is the largest?
    - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... The EU if you count it as a country, otherwise the USA.
      - sampo 11y ago
        Ah, what a difference nominal vs. PPP makes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28no... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...
      - meric 11y ago
        I think the use of PPP is more appropriate than nominal - the former measures how much goods and services the country produces while the latter measures how many US dollars those goods and services sell for. A hamburger is a hamburger - Last time I tried it actually tasted better in a Chinese McDonald's than the Aussie counterpart.
        11y ago
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- l33tbro 11y ago
  The observation that China needs to qualify for tech credibility is just stupid, not racist.
- cscurmudgeon 11y ago
  FYI, China is still not the largest economy in the world.
  - meric 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) Right behind the European Union.
- fru2013 11y ago
  >The suggestion that they'd be banning the export of Intel processors is dumb. Why is this a dumb suggestion? The article does not specify, nor does the PR release by china. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2015-08/01/c_134469932.htm http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2015-08/01/c_134469932...
  - fspeech 11y ago
    The article says the control threshold is similar to the U.S. Does the U.S. ban export of Intel processors? Why isn't confusing supercomputer with microprocessor dumb?

How is that racism?

sampo 11y ago

In Europe, compared to US, 'racism' can have a bit different meaning. (Not that its nuances aren't debated inside US as well.)

ajross 11y ago
OK, I'll bite. How is that racism in Europe?
- sampo 11y ago
  In general, the left side of the political spectrum has a much stronger part in politics, and discussion, in Europe, compared to US. Continental Europe even more than UK. (Which can make it more difficult to follow the discussions, as it is mostly in other languages than in English.) Consequently, they also have more influence on the use and definition of words and concept used in political debate. To get to the the heart of this, you probably would need to find a European leftist to talk with. I am writing this under the assumption that /u/igravious is one. Or, he could just be a bit of a jerk.

igravious 11y ago

Why shouldn't the largest economy in the world be able to produce high tech microprocessors? The suggestion that they'd be banning the export of Intel processors is dumb. The "Hilarious" is just icing. To me the whole comment smacks of racism. What would you call it? I knew I'd get down-voted for saying it, and I've held my tongue in the past. But it's nearly every article about China now. These sardonic off-the-cuff remarks. It's so accepted here, and it shouldn't be. So I'm calling it out.

Frozenlock 11y ago
That doesn't answer my question.
seanmcdirmid 11y ago
Just to be factual, China outside of Taiwan still lacks the ability/technology to fab a modern microprocessor using a competitive process. Fab technology is incredibly restricted, not just by governments but the companies themselves. China doesn't export CPU processors, they import from Intel like everyone else. I believe there is a fab in Singapore, but I'm not sure what generation they are at. There is a testing facility in chengdu, at least.
- igravious 11y ago
  Intel, though globally important, are not the only game in town. This article suggests that there are numerous Chinese companies trying to make the grade: "Semiconductor Manufacturing International (SMIC), Shanghai Huali Microelectronics (HLMC), Shanghai HuaHong NEC Electronics Company (HHNEC), Grace Semiconductor Manufacturing and Advanced Semiconductor Manufacturing (ASMC)" http://qz.com/72542/china-just-surpassed-the-us-in-semiconductor-manufacturing-and-the-trend-is-likely-to-accelerate/ http://qz.com/72542/china-just-surpassed-the-us-in-semicondu... > "McKinsey’s proprietary research indicates that more than 50 percent of PCs, and between 30 and 40 percent of embedded systems (commonly found in automotive, commercial, consumer, industrial, and medical applications), contain content designed in China," http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/high_tech_telecoms_internet/semiconductors_in_china_brave_new_world_or_same_old_story http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/high_tech_telecoms_internet... > "Compared to 2008, consumption of semiconductor materials in North America is down $250 million to $4.74 billion, while in China consumption has shot up 42% to $5.07 billion."
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    Sure, they are putting out cheap low-end chips that are getting used. But they are still way behind on process. I believe its 35-50 nm, while Intel, the Koreans, and the Taiwanese right now are at 14 nm. If you are building the world's fastest super computer, you are putting Intel or similarly fabbed chips in there...they are not putting their own chips in! Then there is also the problem of having their own designs to fab. There was a big scandal a few years back where the "native microprocessor" was actually based on an old design that some professor stole from a company in the states!
ajross 11y ago
Just to be clear, I didn't read that as a statement of abstract capability but of fact. China (still the second largest economy in the world by a large margin, btw) is not, in fact, capable of manufacturing leading edge microprocessors. They just don't have the fabs, nor industrial knowledge to build them. So if they want a supercomputer right now (or frankly at any point in the coming decade or so), they need to do it with chips fabbed in the west. So restricting "export" of that technology back to the west does seem kinda funny to me. No?
- sampo 11y ago
  > China (still the second largest economy in the world by a large margin, btw) What is the largest?
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... The EU if you count it as a country, otherwise the USA.
    - sampo 11y ago
      Ah, what a difference nominal vs. PPP makes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28no... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...
    - meric 11y ago
      I think the use of PPP is more appropriate than nominal - the former measures how much goods and services the country produces while the latter measures how many US dollars those goods and services sell for. A hamburger is a hamburger - Last time I tried it actually tasted better in a Chinese McDonald's than the Aussie counterpart.
      - 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
l33tbro 11y ago
The observation that China needs to qualify for tech credibility is just stupid, not racist.
cscurmudgeon 11y ago
FYI, China is still not the largest economy in the world.
- meric 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) Right behind the European Union.
fru2013 11y ago
>The suggestion that they'd be banning the export of Intel processors is dumb. Why is this a dumb suggestion? The article does not specify, nor does the PR release by china. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2015-08/01/c_134469932.htm http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2015-08/01/c_134469932...
- fspeech 11y ago
  The article says the control threshold is similar to the U.S. Does the U.S. ban export of Intel processors? Why isn't confusing supercomputer with microprocessor dumb?