4 ms·

> Unions are generally for people that...Don't have good negotiating skills Wow, it's amazing that you have such incredible negotiating skills that you can bea

by obrero 11y ago

> Unions are generally for people that...Don't have good negotiating skills Wow, it's amazing that you have such incredible negotiating skills that you can beat out a Fortune 500 companies human resources department, their outside lawyers that make you sign an employment and terms of service agreement, and who have a boilerplate of similar agreements for all the other firms they have done this for etc. The hubris you have in saying this is farcicial. The fact is that you as an individual do not have the skills to out-negotiate this leviathan. You sound ridiculous claiming that you do have the skills to do this. This is why unions have massive legal teams, lobbyists and so forth. You may be right or wrong whether being in a union would currently be better for you, but the notion that you as an individual have super-negotiating powers, and that only losers when faced with a pack of lawyers need their own pack of lawyers, is risible. You do not have good negotiating skills because you're too dumb and hubristic to know that you're outmatched. These companies are laughing at you in that you think you're outmatching their negotiating teams singlehandedly. Why are they hiring you? Because for every dollar you make in salary, they are making $1 + $X off of you. They wouldn't hire you otherwise. That $X you are leaving on the table while patting yourself on the back about what a good negotiator you are. By the way, workers in the same jobs, one union and negotiated by a team of lawyers, one non-union - studies show the workers who have the contract negotiated by a union statistically get a better contract, more wages etc.

paulhauggis 11y ago
"The hubris you have in saying this is farcicial. The fact is that you as an individual do not have the skills to out-negotiate this leviathan." How so? I own my own business now (multiple, actually). But when I didn't, I easily negotiated my rates. How? I commanded a certain salary or I walked. When you have the skills, this isn't that difficult. I don't need a union. Once I was hired, I always made myself valuable. I was only ever let go once when the company went under. The rest of the time, the company would try to do anything to get me to stay. " but the notion that you as an individual have super-negotiating powers, and that only losers when faced with a pack of lawyers need their own pack of lawyers, is risible" When are you ever faced with a 'pack of lawyers' when getting a job?? If it's reading and signing a contract, It's not that expensive to get an attorney to read it over. "Why are they hiring you? Because for every dollar you make in salary, they are making $1 + $X off of you. They wouldn't hire you otherwise" This is how capitalism works. You are leaving out the fact that companies take almost all of the risk. If projects fail or products don't sell, the company pays the price. The worst thing that will happen to an employee is that they need to find another job. If you want all of the profit and take all of the risks (which most people don't want to do), start your own company. "By the way, workers in the same jobs, one union and negotiated by a team of lawyers, one non-union - studies show the workers who have the contract negotiated by a union statistically get a better contract, more wages etc" Of course they do. Because most unskilled people (and people that have negotiation skills) end up getting low-paid jobs. The unions prop these people up and force a company to pay them way more than they are worth. I have had family that joined an auto union. One of the big things they did was force companies to hire two workers for one job. The result? One person would work half the day while the other person golfed, went to the bar, had fun, etc. Both were paid a full wage for the day. It's things like this that bankrupted the American auto industry. A few years back, I went to a trade show in Vegas, because my company had a booth. We had to pay $500 for 1 person to setup a table and another $300 for someone to connect our computers to the network. Both took about 5 minutes. This was because the unions ran the show. Unions are also the ones opposing services like Uber. They are trying to use political force and violence to push them out in many cities (and succeeding) and so many people in the tech industry are against this. Yet, they can't put two and two together and see that this is how the unions work everywhere. I've seen it far too many times for you to tell me otherwise.
- sheepmullet 11y ago
  Of course business owners don't like unions. Unions act like a business whose purpose is to get more money for employees.
jasonkester 11y ago
Doesn't matter. All those lawyers from that Fortune 500 company negotiating non-stop for a year aren't going to be able to buy that house at the end of Malibu point for the same price as a similarly sized one out in Chatsworth. There's only one of that house, and it costs what it costs. Take it or leave it. That's the position that good developers find themselves in today. Yes, there are a lot of ordinary devs out there who would be happy if they didn't have to negotiate to stand out from the other ordinary devs. But really, if you're an ordinary dev, the better plan would be to work towards being an extraordinary dev, the kind of which there exists only one, right out at the end of the point in Malibu. That's very achievable in today's job market. Think long and hard before you throw that away for the security of a Union.
- nosuchthing 11y ago
  Exceptionalism does work for the 1%. Unions are simply a pool of skilled laborers whom know they are being paid less than they're worth. Any other assumptions of limitations imposed upon a union member are up to the actual terms of a specific union group. Nothing about unions existing would change much about the highest skilled groups of (non-union) programmers.
mcv 11y ago
While I don't consider myself a great negotiator, I have successfully negotiated changes to many of my contracts. Not with the largest clients, as their contracts are more like inevitable facts of life, but their contracts tend to be fairly okay, and if I don't like it (which I sometimes don't), I can always leave it. There are plenty of other options. The main trick in negotiation is that you're willing to say no. The problem is that not everybody can afford that, but in this market, I can certainly afford to say no.

by obrero 11y ago

paulhauggis 11y ago

"The hubris you have in saying this is farcicial. The fact is that you as an individual do not have the skills to out-negotiate this leviathan." How so? I own my own business now (multiple, actually). But when I didn't, I easily negotiated my rates. How? I commanded a certain salary or I walked. When you have the skills, this isn't that difficult. I don't need a union. Once I was hired, I always made myself valuable. I was only ever let go once when the company went under. The rest of the time, the company would try to do anything to get me to stay. " but the notion that you as an individual have super-negotiating powers, and that only losers when faced with a pack of lawyers need their own pack of lawyers, is risible" When are you ever faced with a 'pack of lawyers' when getting a job?? If it's reading and signing a contract, It's not that expensive to get an attorney to read it over. "Why are they hiring you? Because for every dollar you make in salary, they are making $1 + $X off of you. They wouldn't hire you otherwise" This is how capitalism works. You are leaving out the fact that companies take almost all of the risk. If projects fail or products don't sell, the company pays the price. The worst thing that will happen to an employee is that they need to find another job. If you want all of the profit and take all of the risks (which most people don't want to do), start your own company. "By the way, workers in the same jobs, one union and negotiated by a team of lawyers, one non-union - studies show the workers who have the contract negotiated by a union statistically get a better contract, more wages etc" Of course they do. Because most unskilled people (and people that have negotiation skills) end up getting low-paid jobs. The unions prop these people up and force a company to pay them way more than they are worth. I have had family that joined an auto union. One of the big things they did was force companies to hire two workers for one job. The result? One person would work half the day while the other person golfed, went to the bar, had fun, etc. Both were paid a full wage for the day. It's things like this that bankrupted the American auto industry. A few years back, I went to a trade show in Vegas, because my company had a booth. We had to pay $500 for 1 person to setup a table and another $300 for someone to connect our computers to the network. Both took about 5 minutes. This was because the unions ran the show. Unions are also the ones opposing services like Uber. They are trying to use political force and violence to push them out in many cities (and succeeding) and so many people in the tech industry are against this. Yet, they can't put two and two together and see that this is how the unions work everywhere. I've seen it far too many times for you to tell me otherwise.

sheepmullet 11y ago
Of course business owners don't like unions. Unions act like a business whose purpose is to get more money for employees.

jasonkester 11y ago

Doesn't matter. All those lawyers from that Fortune 500 company negotiating non-stop for a year aren't going to be able to buy that house at the end of Malibu point for the same price as a similarly sized one out in Chatsworth. There's only one of that house, and it costs what it costs. Take it or leave it. That's the position that good developers find themselves in today. Yes, there are a lot of ordinary devs out there who would be happy if they didn't have to negotiate to stand out from the other ordinary devs. But really, if you're an ordinary dev, the better plan would be to work towards being an extraordinary dev, the kind of which there exists only one, right out at the end of the point in Malibu. That's very achievable in today's job market. Think long and hard before you throw that away for the security of a Union.

nosuchthing 11y ago
Exceptionalism does work for the 1%. Unions are simply a pool of skilled laborers whom know they are being paid less than they're worth. Any other assumptions of limitations imposed upon a union member are up to the actual terms of a specific union group. Nothing about unions existing would change much about the highest skilled groups of (non-union) programmers.

mcv 11y ago

While I don't consider myself a great negotiator, I have successfully negotiated changes to many of my contracts. Not with the largest clients, as their contracts are more like inevitable facts of life, but their contracts tend to be fairly okay, and if I don't like it (which I sometimes don't), I can always leave it. There are plenty of other options. The main trick in negotiation is that you're willing to say no. The problem is that not everybody can afford that, but in this market, I can certainly afford to say no.