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What's baffling is people in denial blaming the victims. We admit it is our fault for thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. We weren't fooled, we we

What's baffling is people in denial blaming the victims. We admit it is our fault for thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. We weren't fooled, we were just dumb. But we still want to survive, that doesn't make us bad people just because we enjoy programming.

cgearhart 11y ago
>...admit it is our fault for thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. CS degrees do have value. But their value is not constant, and depends heavily on the domain and requirements for a particular job. The real confusion is thinking that a CS degree is supposed to merely provide job skills training. While you get some of that as part of the deal, that's not actually the purpose of a degree -- and it never was. In that light, it really shouldn't be surprising that a degree isn't always required to be successful.
- tracker1 11y ago
  Because most line of business applications are crafted, run on insanely fast hardware and don't need pure CS/Math skills to create. Some jobs need CS/EE/Math degree knowledge to do well. Software is written by a wide variety of skill and knowledge levels to varying degrees of effectiveness... in the end all anyone cares about is does it work/look reasonably well.
Merovius 11y ago
What I don't understand is, why aren't you getting a degree? If you acknowledge a degree is important to get hired, why not just get one? At least here in germany it takes you three years to get a degree -- if you can actually code I would claim you even have more than enough time to work on the side to finance it. Given that you'll probably get a good job with six figures right of the bat if you are even borderline competent, that sounds like a better investment of time to me, than trying to do crappy freelance work on the side. Even if we assume that a degree is just a piece of paper that doesn't mean anytheng except getting your foot into the door and even if we add horrendous US enrollment fees (which, btw, the USA should finally do something about) it would still be a very good investment that pays for itself after a couple of years at the most. I just don't get, why it seems so much easier, to fight the system without a degree, than just giving up the fight and get one?
- Futurebot 11y ago
  Not everyone can. Here in the US, doing so without family support / fallback if you fail out makes it extremely risky. If you're supporting yourself completely, having to work gets in the way of going to school (immersion while working full-time, especially at workplaces that demand all your time is basically impossible.) Others succeed in a work setting, but struggle in school. Still others don't want to deal with mounds of debt, and have no college fund/trust fund/aren't good enough to get scholarships. There are lots of reasons. https://medium.com/@opirmusic/why-software-developers-should-still-choose-to-go-to-university-if-someone-else-is-paying-45091d22acc1 https://medium.com/@opirmusic/why-software-developers-should...
  - Merovius 11y ago
    The more I learn about the US educational system, the more I consider it sucking majorly. I don't know how you can put up with that stuff. I already consider it a source of major social injustice, that here in GER you will only receive state-help for the first 5 years of your studies. But it's at least still possible for everyone who wants to get a degree, if they are willing to exit with something like 10K€ of interest-free debt, payable over 8 years (and have something like a 10h/week job on the side, which is incredibly easy to get as a CS-major). I guess I'm just overly priviledged by the german educational system… :-/
- strathmeyer 11y ago
  Uh I got a BS in Computer Science in 2004. There were never any jobs for us, much less ones that offered six figures. I thought that I was borderline competent. I was the smartest kid in my high school. I programmed an operating system and a raytracer. I built games for fun. But when I look for jobs everyone just tells me what a good investment my degree was. Having a degree doesn't get your foot in the door. How can I make it an investment that pays off? It was something that was completely worthless.
michaelcampbell 11y ago
> thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. Interesting. I thought that in 1984, and I've been right ever since then. As have most of the classmates I have kept up with (perhaps a self-selection bias there, granted). Maybe it was the time or I've been very lucky. <shrug>
- strathmeyer 11y ago
  Maybe it's the sort of field where the successful people like to shit on those trying to survive.

cgearhart 11y ago

>...admit it is our fault for thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. CS degrees do have value. But their value is not constant, and depends heavily on the domain and requirements for a particular job. The real confusion is thinking that a CS degree is supposed to merely provide job skills training. While you get some of that as part of the deal, that's not actually the purpose of a degree -- and it never was. In that light, it really shouldn't be surprising that a degree isn't always required to be successful.

tracker1 11y ago
Because most line of business applications are crafted, run on insanely fast hardware and don't need pure CS/Math skills to create. Some jobs need CS/EE/Math degree knowledge to do well. Software is written by a wide variety of skill and knowledge levels to varying degrees of effectiveness... in the end all anyone cares about is does it work/look reasonably well.

Merovius 11y ago

What I don't understand is, why aren't you getting a degree? If you acknowledge a degree is important to get hired, why not just get one? At least here in germany it takes you three years to get a degree -- if you can actually code I would claim you even have more than enough time to work on the side to finance it. Given that you'll probably get a good job with six figures right of the bat if you are even borderline competent, that sounds like a better investment of time to me, than trying to do crappy freelance work on the side. Even if we assume that a degree is just a piece of paper that doesn't mean anytheng except getting your foot into the door and even if we add horrendous US enrollment fees (which, btw, the USA should finally do something about) it would still be a very good investment that pays for itself after a couple of years at the most. I just don't get, why it seems so much easier, to fight the system without a degree, than just giving up the fight and get one?

Futurebot 11y ago
Not everyone can. Here in the US, doing so without family support / fallback if you fail out makes it extremely risky. If you're supporting yourself completely, having to work gets in the way of going to school (immersion while working full-time, especially at workplaces that demand all your time is basically impossible.) Others succeed in a work setting, but struggle in school. Still others don't want to deal with mounds of debt, and have no college fund/trust fund/aren't good enough to get scholarships. There are lots of reasons. https://medium.com/@opirmusic/why-software-developers-should-still-choose-to-go-to-university-if-someone-else-is-paying-45091d22acc1 https://medium.com/@opirmusic/why-software-developers-should...
- Merovius 11y ago
  The more I learn about the US educational system, the more I consider it sucking majorly. I don't know how you can put up with that stuff. I already consider it a source of major social injustice, that here in GER you will only receive state-help for the first 5 years of your studies. But it's at least still possible for everyone who wants to get a degree, if they are willing to exit with something like 10K€ of interest-free debt, payable over 8 years (and have something like a 10h/week job on the side, which is incredibly easy to get as a CS-major). I guess I'm just overly priviledged by the german educational system… :-/
strathmeyer 11y ago
Uh I got a BS in Computer Science in 2004. There were never any jobs for us, much less ones that offered six figures. I thought that I was borderline competent. I was the smartest kid in my high school. I programmed an operating system and a raytracer. I built games for fun. But when I look for jobs everyone just tells me what a good investment my degree was. Having a degree doesn't get your foot in the door. How can I make it an investment that pays off? It was something that was completely worthless.

michaelcampbell 11y ago

> thinking a Computer Science degree had any value. Interesting. I thought that in 1984, and I've been right ever since then. As have most of the classmates I have kept up with (perhaps a self-selection bias there, granted). Maybe it was the time or I've been very lucky. <shrug>

strathmeyer 11y ago
Maybe it's the sort of field where the successful people like to shit on those trying to survive.