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Cute, but in discussing the web, its the semantics of the HTML to be concerned with, not CSS properties or values. There are tons of examples of CSS where a nai

by extra88 11y ago

Cute, but in discussing the web, its the semantics of the HTML to be concerned with, not CSS properties or values. There are tons of examples of CSS where a naive reading would not suggest the desired outcome. Maybe that should be improved but generally it's better to have the mess there than in the HTML (or JavaScript). Yes, it's better to have fewer divs that serve no purpose but to create the desired visual effect. As someone else suggested, in your example you probably don't need <div style="display:table;"> so it only requires adding one container div.

jonahx 11y ago
> Cute, but in discussing the web, its the semantics of the HTML to be concerned with, not CSS properties or values. Why wouldn't the principle be applied everywhere? Expressing your intent -- writing semantically -- is a general principle of clean code, and of clear communication in general. It's fine if you want to argue it's more important in html than in css, but that doesn't grant a pass to the creators and proponents of pure CSS who peddle the ideal of semantics with religious zeal and then fail to apply the principle to their own language, or even to realize that they've failed to do so because, I suspect, many of them don't actually grasp the true goal of the principle -- clarity and usability. If they did, CSS wouldn't be the unusable mess of quirks that it is.
- olavk 11y ago
  You are comparing apples to oranges. Semantic HTML is important because it is a publicly defined semantics and various consumers and user agents are programmed against this semantics. Semantics in class-names, the choice of inline styles vs style sheet etc. are purely for maintainability, e.g. you don't reduce accessibility for anybody if don't use semantic class names, at worst you make it more difficult for yourself, but that might depend on your workflow etc.
  - jonahx 11y ago
    There is nothing in your response which is an argument against what I wrote. I grant everything you said is true -- it does not minimize my argument at all.
- extra88 11y ago
  Who are these zealots you reference that demand semantic HTML and have some influence over CSS specs? What I more often see is people advocating for using semantic HTML, because it exists, and separating concerns (content & presentation). If there was a choice to use CSS properties and values that better conveyed the presentation intent (what you might call its semantic value), they would advocate for that as well.

by extra88 11y ago

jonahx 11y ago

> Cute, but in discussing the web, its the semantics of the HTML to be concerned with, not CSS properties or values. Why wouldn't the principle be applied everywhere? Expressing your intent -- writing semantically -- is a general principle of clean code, and of clear communication in general. It's fine if you want to argue it's more important in html than in css, but that doesn't grant a pass to the creators and proponents of pure CSS who peddle the ideal of semantics with religious zeal and then fail to apply the principle to their own language, or even to realize that they've failed to do so because, I suspect, many of them don't actually grasp the true goal of the principle -- clarity and usability. If they did, CSS wouldn't be the unusable mess of quirks that it is.

olavk 11y ago
You are comparing apples to oranges. Semantic HTML is important because it is a publicly defined semantics and various consumers and user agents are programmed against this semantics. Semantics in class-names, the choice of inline styles vs style sheet etc. are purely for maintainability, e.g. you don't reduce accessibility for anybody if don't use semantic class names, at worst you make it more difficult for yourself, but that might depend on your workflow etc.
- jonahx 11y ago
  There is nothing in your response which is an argument against what I wrote. I grant everything you said is true -- it does not minimize my argument at all.
extra88 11y ago
Who are these zealots you reference that demand semantic HTML and have some influence over CSS specs? What I more often see is people advocating for using semantic HTML, because it exists, and separating concerns (content & presentation). If there was a choice to use CSS properties and values that better conveyed the presentation intent (what you might call its semantic value), they would advocate for that as well.