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It should be possible to make many musical instruments more cheaply. The pBone and pTrumpet prove that quality, affordable brass instruments can be made from pl

by beefman 11y ago

It should be possible to make many musical instruments more cheaply. The pBone and pTrumpet prove that quality, affordable brass instruments can be made from plastic. Bassoon should be even easier (except for the reed).

analog31 11y ago
Indeed, there are also good clarinets and piccolos made from plastic. I can't comment on how good. An issue with the "endangered" instruments is that the lack of demand frustrates the desire to win economies of scale. This is certainly true of the double bass, which I play. Student quality instruments can be made from plywood, but fitting and finishing are still done by hand, and economies are won by doing production in countries with low labor costs.
oinksoft 11y ago
Brass and woodwind instruments are very different beasts though. Plastic clarinets for instance are mostly found in marching bands due to their inferior (brighter) sound, and those instruments are certainly not all plastic. Most woodwind instruments are mechanically intricate, so I'd be impressed if someone could make a pTrumpet version of a clarinet or bassoon (I'd be just as impressed by a pFrenchHorn). Note the difference in sound between a plastic and wooden recorder, one of the simplest woodwinds. I played on a plastic bassoon for the first year, and they do not sound good at all.
- crdb 11y ago
  FWIW I consider the Yamaha YHR-862 horns to be your pFrenchHorn: at around $3,000 not exactly ultra cheap, but a lot of players have owned one as their first double horn. Mass manufactured, good enough for orchestra playing, can take an unbelievable amount of damage (I took the valves out myself for heavy duty maintenance, something I would never do on my gold brass 1103), a gateway to the much more expensive Alexanders that an all-brands trial will inevitably result in you purchasing... I think Yamaha is trying the same approach with pianos but do not believe (from experience) their officious claim that their grands are anywhere close to Steinways. There is nothing in the world like a Model C or D, yet.
- stan_rogers 11y ago
  They don't have to be horrible. Boosey & Hawkes made a particularly nice composite clarinet (many moons ago now - I bought mine more than forty years ago) that didn't sell particularly well, since it had the minor disadvantage of being somewhat more expensive than a low-end wooden instrument. (It was also heavy enough that your right thumb would notice after a long session.) Longitudinal glass fibre and some heavy filler in the resin; it was probably a lot more expensive to fabricate then than it would be now, especially if the instrument has a conical rather than cylindrical bore, and I'm sure the materials could be optimized a lot more easily on a computer rather than by the trial-and-error of the day.
tzs 11y ago
I can see why a brass trumpet can be expensive. Making one seems to involve a lot of manual work, at least as shown in this "How It's Made" segment [1]. Another interesting video is this one from Yamaha showing their factory [2], which is also mostly manual. The actual cost of the brass in a trumpet is on the order of $3 at current brass prices, so it is clear most of the cost is labor and "what the market will bear". I'm not very knowledgeable about manufacturing, but based on watching a lot of "How It's Made" and similar shows, I'd expect the plastic trumpet's manufacture is more automated. I'm not sure why brass trumpets could not be automated, though. I do note that brass trumpets do not have to be expensive. Amazon has many many brass trumpets that are less than the Amazon price for the pTrumpet, and are higher rated [3]. Perhaps these are made using more automation than the trumpets in the above cited videos? [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NAaRQUTp9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NAaRQUTp9g [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIqDhO1iddo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIqDhO1iddo [3] I'm not sure that these are all brass. Some of the descriptions make it sound like some are using other materials for at least some of the metal parts.
- beefman 11y ago
  I see a brass horn at $140 (to the pTrumpet's $180) and I'll wager the pTrumpet is a much better instrument. But I didn't say brass costs more than plastic. The problem with bassoons is the labor. Because of the low volume, they're not made like commodities (as trumpets and even violins are). My suggestion is that plastic manufacturing, of the sort proven by the pTrumpet, could be a fast route to commodity bassoons.
jhdevos 11y ago
Having played on (and heard people play on) a pBone, I'd have to say that even though it's quite impressive to see what they've been able to do with just plastic, it's still quite some way off from being a 'quality' instrument. And they do not prove at all that the same can be done for any kind of instrument: trumpets and trombones are a lot cheaper to make than things like bassoons - you can find very cheap brass trumpets on ebay for very little money, some of which are surprisingly acceptable; and a rather good trumpet will set you back quite a lot less than a basson only fit for a beginner.
- beefman 11y ago
  The pTrumpet is at least as good as typical student horns I've played. I can't speak to the pBone but reviews seem positive. Quite right, trumpets are already made in volume and thus are already sold at their marginal cost of production. Bassoons aren't. This is the reason for their high cost. I claim the manufacturing process used for pBones and pTrumpets could be used to produce a comparably-priced bassoon that would be adequate for students (it would be harder though maybe still doable with wood).

by beefman 11y ago

analog31 11y ago

Indeed, there are also good clarinets and piccolos made from plastic. I can't comment on how good. An issue with the "endangered" instruments is that the lack of demand frustrates the desire to win economies of scale. This is certainly true of the double bass, which I play. Student quality instruments can be made from plywood, but fitting and finishing are still done by hand, and economies are won by doing production in countries with low labor costs.

oinksoft 11y ago

Brass and woodwind instruments are very different beasts though. Plastic clarinets for instance are mostly found in marching bands due to their inferior (brighter) sound, and those instruments are certainly not all plastic. Most woodwind instruments are mechanically intricate, so I'd be impressed if someone could make a pTrumpet version of a clarinet or bassoon (I'd be just as impressed by a pFrenchHorn). Note the difference in sound between a plastic and wooden recorder, one of the simplest woodwinds. I played on a plastic bassoon for the first year, and they do not sound good at all.

crdb 11y ago
FWIW I consider the Yamaha YHR-862 horns to be your pFrenchHorn: at around $3,000 not exactly ultra cheap, but a lot of players have owned one as their first double horn. Mass manufactured, good enough for orchestra playing, can take an unbelievable amount of damage (I took the valves out myself for heavy duty maintenance, something I would never do on my gold brass 1103), a gateway to the much more expensive Alexanders that an all-brands trial will inevitably result in you purchasing... I think Yamaha is trying the same approach with pianos but do not believe (from experience) their officious claim that their grands are anywhere close to Steinways. There is nothing in the world like a Model C or D, yet.
stan_rogers 11y ago
They don't have to be horrible. Boosey & Hawkes made a particularly nice composite clarinet (many moons ago now - I bought mine more than forty years ago) that didn't sell particularly well, since it had the minor disadvantage of being somewhat more expensive than a low-end wooden instrument. (It was also heavy enough that your right thumb would notice after a long session.) Longitudinal glass fibre and some heavy filler in the resin; it was probably a lot more expensive to fabricate then than it would be now, especially if the instrument has a conical rather than cylindrical bore, and I'm sure the materials could be optimized a lot more easily on a computer rather than by the trial-and-error of the day.

tzs 11y ago

I can see why a brass trumpet can be expensive. Making one seems to involve a lot of manual work, at least as shown in this "How It's Made" segment [1]. Another interesting video is this one from Yamaha showing their factory [2], which is also mostly manual. The actual cost of the brass in a trumpet is on the order of $3 at current brass prices, so it is clear most of the cost is labor and "what the market will bear". I'm not very knowledgeable about manufacturing, but based on watching a lot of "How It's Made" and similar shows, I'd expect the plastic trumpet's manufacture is more automated. I'm not sure why brass trumpets could not be automated, though. I do note that brass trumpets do not have to be expensive. Amazon has many many brass trumpets that are less than the Amazon price for the pTrumpet, and are higher rated [3]. Perhaps these are made using more automation than the trumpets in the above cited videos? [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NAaRQUTp9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NAaRQUTp9g [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIqDhO1iddo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIqDhO1iddo [3] I'm not sure that these are all brass. Some of the descriptions make it sound like some are using other materials for at least some of the metal parts.

beefman 11y ago
I see a brass horn at $140 (to the pTrumpet's $180) and I'll wager the pTrumpet is a much better instrument. But I didn't say brass costs more than plastic. The problem with bassoons is the labor. Because of the low volume, they're not made like commodities (as trumpets and even violins are). My suggestion is that plastic manufacturing, of the sort proven by the pTrumpet, could be a fast route to commodity bassoons.

jhdevos 11y ago

Having played on (and heard people play on) a pBone, I'd have to say that even though it's quite impressive to see what they've been able to do with just plastic, it's still quite some way off from being a 'quality' instrument. And they do not prove at all that the same can be done for any kind of instrument: trumpets and trombones are a lot cheaper to make than things like bassoons - you can find very cheap brass trumpets on ebay for very little money, some of which are surprisingly acceptable; and a rather good trumpet will set you back quite a lot less than a basson only fit for a beginner.

beefman 11y ago
The pTrumpet is at least as good as typical student horns I've played. I can't speak to the pBone but reviews seem positive. Quite right, trumpets are already made in volume and thus are already sold at their marginal cost of production. Bassoons aren't. This is the reason for their high cost. I claim the manufacturing process used for pBones and pTrumpets could be used to produce a comparably-priced bassoon that would be adequate for students (it would be harder though maybe still doable with wood).