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> "Other people are data-thieves too!" and "We've been stealing data from for a long time" are not justifications for MS's current bad behavior. This isn't abou

> "Other people are data-thieves too!" and "We've been stealing data from for a long time" are not justifications for MS's current bad behavior. This isn't about Google, even though they are worse in many ways. I think the issue is really this: how many people complaining about these issues are using an Android or iOS device? How many are using OSX or search using Google? How many use Gmail? So you say it's not justification? Actions speak louder than words. I've seen people posting about this on Facebook. This doesn't excuse the behavior, but the reality is, the people complaining don't really care to change. They just want to pretend to be upset. Take the article this is linked to. The website on which it sits. The amount of tracking that occurs. The uproar is huge, no doubt. But I wonder how much of the uproar is sincere. And how much is just aiming for cheap internet points and likes.

pdkl95 11y ago
I don't have an Android or iOS device, nor do I use Gmail. I certainly don't have a Facebook account. I use Free Software and pay fastmail.fm for my email services. It is never a good idea to project your own hypocrisy onto everybody else. As for people caring to change - you're assuming people even understand that this is happening and what the consequences are. Even in the case where someone does understand, the common attitude that I've seen is feeling trapped without any non-spyware options. How many people "don't really care", and how many are unable to move because of vendor lock-in?
- jasonlotito 11y ago
  > It is never a good idea to project your own hypocrisy onto everybody else. I didn't. I was speaking generally. I don't call you out specifically. In fact, I explicitly make mention that there are probably people who are sincere about this. What I wonder is how much of the uproar is from people that do use an Android or iOS device. That do use Gmail. That use Facebook or Google+. Or support companies that share data. Simply put: next time, don't be so antagonistic. I wasn't projecting anything onto anyone else, including you. Rereading my comment, I can only assume that you misread what I wrote, and assumed I said things I did not.
  - dandelion_lover 11y ago
    I am using gmail account and I am a part of this 'uproar'. There is no contradiction here, despite you may think so. I just used 'normal' services as (almost) everyone and at some point I found Stallman's articles and they opened me the whole new world. It is however not easy at all to switch to free software right from the first day. You have to change quite a few workflows. I have a job and I cannot just spend a month to reinstall everything and to get used to free software alternatives. I switch to these alternatives slowly but constantly. Simply put: "how many people complaining about these issues are using an Android or iOS device?" is irrelevant. What relevant is how many people know about it and will be happy to change it, but not necessarily for these high costs as I pay.
- mark_l_watson 11y ago
  May I ask what you use for a cellphone? It blows me away sometimes how much information I give to Google via my Android phone (I turn off location services and use fastmail, otherwise I just use the phone and services as-is). I have tried to get my friends and family interested in using private systems that I have set up like Apache Wave and Diaspora but there aren't many takers.
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    I don't. I use POTS. I'm not entirely against the idea of a cellphone, but they are rarely needed. In the past, I have used several traditional "dumb" cellphones. These days, I'm rarely that far from a POTS line. Even without the data-collection problems and cost differences, I prefer the quality of a waveguide to the intermittent reception problems of radio. Wave is cool - I really wish it was more popular. I actually use XMPP+OTR for a lot of stuff, which used to be very interoperable. sigh If I needed to be on-call, I would follow Dan Geer's lead and use a pager.
    - morganvachon 11y ago
      > If I needed to be on-call, I would follow Dan Geer's lead and use a pager. And if you can't find a paging service you like, trust, or can afford, you can always (assuming you have an amateur radio license and don't intend to run a business using it) set up your own: http://www.n5dux.com/ham/files/pdf/Ham%20Radio%20Paging-Putting%20POCSAG%20On%20Packet.pdf http://www.n5dux.com/ham/files/pdf/Ham%20Radio%20Paging-Putt... http://aprs.org/aprs-messaging.html http://aprs.org/aprs-messaging.html http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/pager/plan.html http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/pager/plan.html

pdkl95 11y ago

I don't have an Android or iOS device, nor do I use Gmail. I certainly don't have a Facebook account. I use Free Software and pay fastmail.fm for my email services. It is never a good idea to project your own hypocrisy onto everybody else. As for people caring to change - you're assuming people even understand that this is happening and what the consequences are. Even in the case where someone does understand, the common attitude that I've seen is feeling trapped without any non-spyware options. How many people "don't really care", and how many are unable to move because of vendor lock-in?

jasonlotito 11y ago
> It is never a good idea to project your own hypocrisy onto everybody else. I didn't. I was speaking generally. I don't call you out specifically. In fact, I explicitly make mention that there are probably people who are sincere about this. What I wonder is how much of the uproar is from people that do use an Android or iOS device. That do use Gmail. That use Facebook or Google+. Or support companies that share data. Simply put: next time, don't be so antagonistic. I wasn't projecting anything onto anyone else, including you. Rereading my comment, I can only assume that you misread what I wrote, and assumed I said things I did not.
- dandelion_lover 11y ago
  I am using gmail account and I am a part of this 'uproar'. There is no contradiction here, despite you may think so. I just used 'normal' services as (almost) everyone and at some point I found Stallman's articles and they opened me the whole new world. It is however not easy at all to switch to free software right from the first day. You have to change quite a few workflows. I have a job and I cannot just spend a month to reinstall everything and to get used to free software alternatives. I switch to these alternatives slowly but constantly. Simply put: "how many people complaining about these issues are using an Android or iOS device?" is irrelevant. What relevant is how many people know about it and will be happy to change it, but not necessarily for these high costs as I pay.
mark_l_watson 11y ago
May I ask what you use for a cellphone? It blows me away sometimes how much information I give to Google via my Android phone (I turn off location services and use fastmail, otherwise I just use the phone and services as-is). I have tried to get my friends and family interested in using private systems that I have set up like Apache Wave and Diaspora but there aren't many takers.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  I don't. I use POTS. I'm not entirely against the idea of a cellphone, but they are rarely needed. In the past, I have used several traditional "dumb" cellphones. These days, I'm rarely that far from a POTS line. Even without the data-collection problems and cost differences, I prefer the quality of a waveguide to the intermittent reception problems of radio. Wave is cool - I really wish it was more popular. I actually use XMPP+OTR for a lot of stuff, which used to be very interoperable. sigh If I needed to be on-call, I would follow Dan Geer's lead and use a pager.
  - morganvachon 11y ago
    > If I needed to be on-call, I would follow Dan Geer's lead and use a pager. And if you can't find a paging service you like, trust, or can afford, you can always (assuming you have an amateur radio license and don't intend to run a business using it) set up your own: http://www.n5dux.com/ham/files/pdf/Ham%20Radio%20Paging-Putting%20POCSAG%20On%20Packet.pdf http://www.n5dux.com/ham/files/pdf/Ham%20Radio%20Paging-Putt... http://aprs.org/aprs-messaging.html http://aprs.org/aprs-messaging.html http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/pager/plan.html http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/pager/plan.html