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Exactly. I challenge anyone who complains about the "new"[1] data logging in Windows 10 to take a hard look at Google's policies as well. They record just as mu

Exactly. I challenge anyone who complains about the "new"[1] data logging in Windows 10 to take a hard look at Google's policies as well. They record just as much, sometimes more, when you use their services. Their email service in particular is 100% invasive: They literally read every word of your email and any email you receive, whether the person who sent it to you consents or not. But it's Google, so of course they get a pass in the media. [1] If you turn off all the privacy invading options when setting up Windows 10 (choose "Customize" instead of "Express"), there is no more logging than Windows 7 does by default. Somehow that is never mentioned in these articles though.

pdkl95 11y ago
"Other people are data-thieves too!" and "We've been stealing data from for a long time" are not justifications for MS's current bad behavior. This isn't about Google, even though they are worse in many ways. A big part of the problem is the creeping-normalization of these practices, where bad behavior is excused simply because it is common. This is how "big lie" propaganda works, and the apparatchik can always be relied upon to find some excuse for why we should just ignore any problems.
- jasonlotito 11y ago
  > "Other people are data-thieves too!" and "We've been stealing data from for a long time" are not justifications for MS's current bad behavior. This isn't about Google, even though they are worse in many ways. I think the issue is really this: how many people complaining about these issues are using an Android or iOS device? How many are using OSX or search using Google? How many use Gmail? So you say it's not justification? Actions speak louder than words. I've seen people posting about this on Facebook. This doesn't excuse the behavior, but the reality is, the people complaining don't really care to change. They just want to pretend to be upset. Take the article this is linked to. The website on which it sits. The amount of tracking that occurs. The uproar is huge, no doubt. But I wonder how much of the uproar is sincere. And how much is just aiming for cheap internet points and likes.
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    I don't have an Android or iOS device, nor do I use Gmail. I certainly don't have a Facebook account. I use Free Software and pay fastmail.fm for my email services. It is never a good idea to project your own hypocrisy onto everybody else. As for people caring to change - you're assuming people even understand that this is happening and what the consequences are. Even in the case where someone does understand, the common attitude that I've seen is feeling trapped without any non-spyware options. How many people "don't really care", and how many are unable to move because of vendor lock-in?
    - jasonlotito 11y ago
      > It is never a good idea to project your own hypocrisy onto everybody else. I didn't. I was speaking generally. I don't call you out specifically. In fact, I explicitly make mention that there are probably people who are sincere about this. What I wonder is how much of the uproar is from people that do use an Android or iOS device. That do use Gmail. That use Facebook or Google+. Or support companies that share data. Simply put: next time, don't be so antagonistic. I wasn't projecting anything onto anyone else, including you. Rereading my comment, I can only assume that you misread what I wrote, and assumed I said things I did not.
      - dandelion_lover 11y ago
        I am using gmail account and I am a part of this 'uproar'. There is no contradiction here, despite you may think so. I just used 'normal' services as (almost) everyone and at some point I found Stallman's articles and they opened me the whole new world. It is however not easy at all to switch to free software right from the first day. You have to change quite a few workflows. I have a job and I cannot just spend a month to reinstall everything and to get used to free software alternatives. I switch to these alternatives slowly but constantly. Simply put: "how many people complaining about these issues are using an Android or iOS device?" is irrelevant. What relevant is how many people know about it and will be happy to change it, but not necessarily for these high costs as I pay.
    - 11y ago
- morganvachon 11y ago
  > "Other people are data-thieves too!" and "We've been stealing data from for a long time" are not justifications for MS's current bad behavior. I never said it was, I was simply pointing out that this week it's Microsoft in the media crosshairs over practices that are not unique to them. Next week it may indeed be Google under the microscope, though they tend to be media darlings most of the time. My point is, this is nothing new so why are we acting like it is? > A big part of the problem is the creeping-normalization of these practices I agree 100% with this; see Gmail again as a great example of privacy erosion being pushed upon us a little bit at a time, until we don't notice or care anymore.

pdkl95 11y ago

"Other people are data-thieves too!" and "We've been stealing data from for a long time" are not justifications for MS's current bad behavior. This isn't about Google, even though they are worse in many ways. A big part of the problem is the creeping-normalization of these practices, where bad behavior is excused simply because it is common. This is how "big lie" propaganda works, and the apparatchik can always be relied upon to find some excuse for why we should just ignore any problems.

jasonlotito 11y ago
> "Other people are data-thieves too!" and "We've been stealing data from for a long time" are not justifications for MS's current bad behavior. This isn't about Google, even though they are worse in many ways. I think the issue is really this: how many people complaining about these issues are using an Android or iOS device? How many are using OSX or search using Google? How many use Gmail? So you say it's not justification? Actions speak louder than words. I've seen people posting about this on Facebook. This doesn't excuse the behavior, but the reality is, the people complaining don't really care to change. They just want to pretend to be upset. Take the article this is linked to. The website on which it sits. The amount of tracking that occurs. The uproar is huge, no doubt. But I wonder how much of the uproar is sincere. And how much is just aiming for cheap internet points and likes.
- pdkl95 11y ago
  I don't have an Android or iOS device, nor do I use Gmail. I certainly don't have a Facebook account. I use Free Software and pay fastmail.fm for my email services. It is never a good idea to project your own hypocrisy onto everybody else. As for people caring to change - you're assuming people even understand that this is happening and what the consequences are. Even in the case where someone does understand, the common attitude that I've seen is feeling trapped without any non-spyware options. How many people "don't really care", and how many are unable to move because of vendor lock-in?
  - jasonlotito 11y ago
    > It is never a good idea to project your own hypocrisy onto everybody else. I didn't. I was speaking generally. I don't call you out specifically. In fact, I explicitly make mention that there are probably people who are sincere about this. What I wonder is how much of the uproar is from people that do use an Android or iOS device. That do use Gmail. That use Facebook or Google+. Or support companies that share data. Simply put: next time, don't be so antagonistic. I wasn't projecting anything onto anyone else, including you. Rereading my comment, I can only assume that you misread what I wrote, and assumed I said things I did not.
    - dandelion_lover 11y ago
      I am using gmail account and I am a part of this 'uproar'. There is no contradiction here, despite you may think so. I just used 'normal' services as (almost) everyone and at some point I found Stallman's articles and they opened me the whole new world. It is however not easy at all to switch to free software right from the first day. You have to change quite a few workflows. I have a job and I cannot just spend a month to reinstall everything and to get used to free software alternatives. I switch to these alternatives slowly but constantly. Simply put: "how many people complaining about these issues are using an Android or iOS device?" is irrelevant. What relevant is how many people know about it and will be happy to change it, but not necessarily for these high costs as I pay.
  - 11y ago
morganvachon 11y ago
> "Other people are data-thieves too!" and "We've been stealing data from for a long time" are not justifications for MS's current bad behavior. I never said it was, I was simply pointing out that this week it's Microsoft in the media crosshairs over practices that are not unique to them. Next week it may indeed be Google under the microscope, though they tend to be media darlings most of the time. My point is, this is nothing new so why are we acting like it is? > A big part of the problem is the creeping-normalization of these practices I agree 100% with this; see Gmail again as a great example of privacy erosion being pushed upon us a little bit at a time, until we don't notice or care anymore.