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As someone who hasn't trained in MMA, but watched some bouts from early in its spate of popularity some years ago (unconditioned and unprepared fighters, people

by rm445 11y ago

As someone who hasn't trained in MMA, but watched some bouts from early in its spate of popularity some years ago (unconditioned and unprepared fighters, people fighting wearing the gi of their martial art and being flung all over the place by it, many victories by knockout with little grappling), it still seems like a young sport. Clearly it developed massively when the Brazilian ju jitsu guys came to dominate. When a fighter wins with an unusually great use of a particular technique, the armbar, either a counter-method will become widespread, or if there isn't a good counter the armbar will become ubiquitous. Either way the champion fighter will regress towards the mean. As you say, psychological dominance is a factor. And dare I say that the women's sport potentially is still in a younger stage of development. The first truly outstanding athlete to take up a somewhat niche sport, dominating over the lesser athletes currently present, is going to be hailed as one of the greats. Yet of course they risk reverting to the mean as the sport's profile rises and challengers appear.

michaelchisari 11y ago
Yet of course they risk reverting to the mean as the sport's profile rises and challengers appear. This is what everyone is waiting for. Rhonda was effectively raised from childhood to be one of the greats in a mature women's UFC. So in this early era, nobody can touch her Martial arts on her level is something that hardly any women encounter as early on as she did, and most of her competitors are coming at a major late-start disadvantage to her. What's particularly great is to see how she inspired young women and girls to start training intensely now instead of finding a love for the sport in their late teens and twenites.
bmelton 11y ago
Women's MMA is definitely younger than men's, but at the same time, the women have the luxury of not having to reinvent the wheel, as (to my knowledge) there are either none or very few female MMA gyms, so they're training with the guys, and have the same ~20 years of MMA history to draw from in what works and what doesn't. The interesting thing about the Rousey's armbar is that everyone knows it's coming, and presumably, would look to defend against it above all else, and yet she still has an astonishing number of wins with it. A lot of that has to do with her being well-rounded elsewhere, and a lot of is has to do with the fact that she's really, really good at armbars. Women's MMA is primarily disadvantaged by the dearth of women in college / high school wrestling, which means that most of them are starting later than the guys who graduated from greco roman wrestling and parlayed that into MMA. It's a big advantage, due almost entirely to discrimination, but one that will likely be obviated over time. Ronda, on the other hand, grew up in an athletic household as the daughter of the first women's judo champion, and that mother routinely pushed her towards a similar path. She maybe didn't get a chance at college wrestling (or maybe she did, hell if I know), but she got the relevant training regardless, which puts her ahead of the rest of the pack. Ronda's got a leg up, and it probably won't persist ad eterneum, but for now, and probably the immediate future, she's the best, and she's earned it. If she stops being the best, the question really is whether the talent vacuum rushes in around her, or gets occupied by the single person that beat her, and all that.
- TylerE 11y ago
  So why segregate by gender? Isn't weight class enough?
  - MagnumOpus 11y ago
    It's not. While her skill level might be as high as an elite male fighter's of the same weight, her strength isn't. Sexual dimorphism is real and it wouldn't be entertaining to see her pounded into the ground by an amateur thaiboxer -- same as it isn't fun seeing both Serena and Venus Williams being effortlessly beaten by a thirty-something nobody male tennis player
    - Rodeoclash 11y ago
      More about that here with the 1998 match between the Williams sisters and Braasch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis) They claimed being able to beat anybody ranked 200 or lower in Men's tennis and lost to someone ranked 203rd. The difference dimorphism makes is enormous.
    - rdancer 11y ago
      Even when you look at the obviously mismatched fights of, say, Yuki Nakai v Gerard Gordeau, it's not pretty, it's assymetrical, but the little guy won https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yko1xLF7AQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yko1xLF7AQU In a complete contrast to Rhonda running her normal game against Gegard Mousasi, in a sparring back in 2012 -- as you say, not really entertaining, if perhaps instructive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9xjs2fWJEs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9xjs2fWJEs
    - phlandis 11y ago
      Someone actually understands. I try to explain this to people, but they just don't get it. Not that it matters. It will never happen.
  - bmelton 11y ago
    To be fair, the UFC began with no weight classes, and only started implementing weight classes as capitulation to the regulatory bodies who were trying to shut them down. In brief, the sport was being banned and outlawed in various sates for being too dangerous, and in order to attain "legal" status, the UFC negotiated with gaming boards to determine rules. Some of those rules are stupid, some are undoubtedly prudent, but the rules largely exist because without them, the state of Nevada (and others) wouldn't have allowed the UFC to continue. I don't have any special insight as to whether or not those gaming commissions mandate a separate women's class or not, and the UFC head honcho Dana White had previously stated that he'd never allow women's MMA in the UFC at all, but I suspect that his opinion has been changed by how competitive the women's division actually is.

by rm445 11y ago

michaelchisari 11y ago

Yet of course they risk reverting to the mean as the sport's profile rises and challengers appear. This is what everyone is waiting for. Rhonda was effectively raised from childhood to be one of the greats in a mature women's UFC. So in this early era, nobody can touch her Martial arts on her level is something that hardly any women encounter as early on as she did, and most of her competitors are coming at a major late-start disadvantage to her. What's particularly great is to see how she inspired young women and girls to start training intensely now instead of finding a love for the sport in their late teens and twenites.

bmelton 11y ago

Women's MMA is definitely younger than men's, but at the same time, the women have the luxury of not having to reinvent the wheel, as (to my knowledge) there are either none or very few female MMA gyms, so they're training with the guys, and have the same ~20 years of MMA history to draw from in what works and what doesn't. The interesting thing about the Rousey's armbar is that everyone knows it's coming, and presumably, would look to defend against it above all else, and yet she still has an astonishing number of wins with it. A lot of that has to do with her being well-rounded elsewhere, and a lot of is has to do with the fact that she's really, really good at armbars. Women's MMA is primarily disadvantaged by the dearth of women in college / high school wrestling, which means that most of them are starting later than the guys who graduated from greco roman wrestling and parlayed that into MMA. It's a big advantage, due almost entirely to discrimination, but one that will likely be obviated over time. Ronda, on the other hand, grew up in an athletic household as the daughter of the first women's judo champion, and that mother routinely pushed her towards a similar path. She maybe didn't get a chance at college wrestling (or maybe she did, hell if I know), but she got the relevant training regardless, which puts her ahead of the rest of the pack. Ronda's got a leg up, and it probably won't persist ad eterneum, but for now, and probably the immediate future, she's the best, and she's earned it. If she stops being the best, the question really is whether the talent vacuum rushes in around her, or gets occupied by the single person that beat her, and all that.

TylerE 11y ago
So why segregate by gender? Isn't weight class enough?
- MagnumOpus 11y ago
  It's not. While her skill level might be as high as an elite male fighter's of the same weight, her strength isn't. Sexual dimorphism is real and it wouldn't be entertaining to see her pounded into the ground by an amateur thaiboxer -- same as it isn't fun seeing both Serena and Venus Williams being effortlessly beaten by a thirty-something nobody male tennis player
  - Rodeoclash 11y ago
    More about that here with the 1998 match between the Williams sisters and Braasch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis) They claimed being able to beat anybody ranked 200 or lower in Men's tennis and lost to someone ranked 203rd. The difference dimorphism makes is enormous.
  - rdancer 11y ago
    Even when you look at the obviously mismatched fights of, say, Yuki Nakai v Gerard Gordeau, it's not pretty, it's assymetrical, but the little guy won https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yko1xLF7AQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yko1xLF7AQU In a complete contrast to Rhonda running her normal game against Gegard Mousasi, in a sparring back in 2012 -- as you say, not really entertaining, if perhaps instructive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9xjs2fWJEs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9xjs2fWJEs
  - phlandis 11y ago
    Someone actually understands. I try to explain this to people, but they just don't get it. Not that it matters. It will never happen.
- bmelton 11y ago
  To be fair, the UFC began with no weight classes, and only started implementing weight classes as capitulation to the regulatory bodies who were trying to shut them down. In brief, the sport was being banned and outlawed in various sates for being too dangerous, and in order to attain "legal" status, the UFC negotiated with gaming boards to determine rules. Some of those rules are stupid, some are undoubtedly prudent, but the rules largely exist because without them, the state of Nevada (and others) wouldn't have allowed the UFC to continue. I don't have any special insight as to whether or not those gaming commissions mandate a separate women's class or not, and the UFC head honcho Dana White had previously stated that he'd never allow women's MMA in the UFC at all, but I suspect that his opinion has been changed by how competitive the women's division actually is.