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I upvoted you. I live in Sweden and used to live in Denmark. In both places the rise of right wing parties (Danske Folkeparti and Sverige Demokraterna) is preci

I upvoted you. I live in Sweden and used to live in Denmark. In both places the rise of right wing parties (Danske Folkeparti and Sverige Demokraterna) is precisely due to the conflicts between these two groups. It isn't Islam that is the problem though. There are several Muslims, especially in Sweden that have integrated quite well. I can't put my finger on what it is that is a problem though. Indians by all means(I am one) don't integrate that well either (in clothes or social and religious habits) but they don't seem to receive that much vitriol. I feel the inequality of women is one reason for the negative reputation of Muslim residents(I can't find precise stats online right now but the percentage of non-working Muslim women is much higher than in other religious groups) and the amount of children they have per family is more leading to more welfare[0]. [0] I don't have stats right now so I can't prove this but I can anecdotally prove it based on conversations with many Swedes and Danes.

tomjen3 11y ago
As a Dane I don't know much about Indians, but the Chinese haven't integrated much, but they work hard and aren't trouble so why should we hate them? Roma (or gysis) on the other hand - tons of criminals, so very unpopular. Muslims are a mixed bag. Lots of them own small businesses, if you buy a pizza chances are you will be served by a muslim. On the other hand if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim, despite the fact that they are not a large part of the population. Add to that Denmark has really short sentences _and_ we generally don't deport people even if they are gang leaders and you can see why there are lots of people who don't like muslims. Anyway much of this could be avoided if we were tougher on crime, or much more discriminating in who we let in.
- kshatrea 11y ago
  Absolutely, and the tougher on crime motif is one of the things that makes DF very popular. In Gothenburg, Sweden for instance the Roma are everywhere, outside most large stores and have a bustling begging operation and there is plenty of theft which make them highly unpopular. You're right that crime (especially in Scandinavia which is highly peaceable) is one reason why certain communities are despised. But I feel that refugees also have certain other problems - they've never been to school in many cases and therefore their children have disadvantages in such high tech nations, which causes inequality to rise and so on and so forth. This topic is going to lead to many PhDs in the future, but in the mean time lets see what happens...
  - tomjen3 11y ago
    People don't tend to have visceral reactions to socioeconomic trends, so I doubt that would be the cause of hatred against muslims but I know they do get that visceral reaction to fear. Inequality may be a problem in the future, but that is a solvable problem so long as they are willing to work hard.
- grkvlt 11y ago
  > if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim WTF? This, along with the parent comment about 'muslims have more children, so they get more welfare' are both hideously racist. If there were any statistics available to back these statements up, don't you think the far right would be trumpeting them for all they're worth? Instead, we get anecdata, and these shoddily cherry-picked anecotes are rarely verifiable. I would like to downvote both comments, but instead I am going to content myself replying like this...
- dang 11y ago
  > On the other hand if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim Whoa. That sounds like a nasty slur. You can't do that here.
negamax 11y ago
As an Indian living in Europe, I disagree with you about Indians not being integrated. Well, depends on which part TBH as Europe is so different depending on the direction. But I have no issues whatsoever in Ireland. and have friends from all over.
fit2rule 11y ago
>I can't put my finger on what it is that is a problem though. IMHO, the problem is language - i.e. immigrants speak theirs, and natives 'speak theirs'. Natives are unwilling to allow another language into their lives, whereas immigrants are forced to learn another language in order to survive - in both cases, it is a lot of work to learn a new language. I wish it were compulsory to learn at least 2 foreign languages in European countries - sure, there is the defacto 'English as a second language' standard, which has produced a lot of tolerance in previously warring societies, it has to be admitted - but wouldn't it be great if we all were encouraged, somehow, to .. say .. learn Farsi .. as a means of solving the big European problem of integration, immigration, and internationalization? I mean, it really only makes sense for the Western European powers to promote polyglotism given our current circumstances. I think I'd be happier about immigration if my kids grew up learning the language of the immigrants in our land, alongside their native tongue, anyway .. I'll be doing my best to encourage my kids to learn languages of the immigrants during the course of their lives.
- morgante 11y ago
  If you're moving to live in a new country, it seems pretty sensible that you should have to learn the language of your new home.
  - fit2rule 11y ago
    Sure, you should 'have to' .. anything less would be tantamount to accepting a major cultural shift akin to warfare. But then again, I think there is a lot of room for people to accept social responsibility for the human issue of immigration, and I think any social system which encourages people to learn languages outside their own is bound to produce a more tolerant, resilient society. Right now, so much hate and prejudice is predicated on the assumption that "they don't speak our language" .. if, for example, it were considered highly illegal to ever go to war against someone whose language you cannot speak, this would be a better state of affairs. "Kill no man whose language you have not learned" might be the mantra I'm going for here ..

tomjen3 11y ago

As a Dane I don't know much about Indians, but the Chinese haven't integrated much, but they work hard and aren't trouble so why should we hate them? Roma (or gysis) on the other hand - tons of criminals, so very unpopular. Muslims are a mixed bag. Lots of them own small businesses, if you buy a pizza chances are you will be served by a muslim. On the other hand if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim, despite the fact that they are not a large part of the population. Add to that Denmark has really short sentences _and_ we generally don't deport people even if they are gang leaders and you can see why there are lots of people who don't like muslims. Anyway much of this could be avoided if we were tougher on crime, or much more discriminating in who we let in.

kshatrea 11y ago
Absolutely, and the tougher on crime motif is one of the things that makes DF very popular. In Gothenburg, Sweden for instance the Roma are everywhere, outside most large stores and have a bustling begging operation and there is plenty of theft which make them highly unpopular. You're right that crime (especially in Scandinavia which is highly peaceable) is one reason why certain communities are despised. But I feel that refugees also have certain other problems - they've never been to school in many cases and therefore their children have disadvantages in such high tech nations, which causes inequality to rise and so on and so forth. This topic is going to lead to many PhDs in the future, but in the mean time lets see what happens...
- tomjen3 11y ago
  People don't tend to have visceral reactions to socioeconomic trends, so I doubt that would be the cause of hatred against muslims but I know they do get that visceral reaction to fear. Inequality may be a problem in the future, but that is a solvable problem so long as they are willing to work hard.
grkvlt 11y ago
> if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim WTF? This, along with the parent comment about 'muslims have more children, so they get more welfare' are both hideously racist. If there were any statistics available to back these statements up, don't you think the far right would be trumpeting them for all they're worth? Instead, we get anecdata, and these shoddily cherry-picked anecotes are rarely verifiable. I would like to downvote both comments, but instead I am going to content myself replying like this...
dang 11y ago
> On the other hand if you get raped by a stranger it is also most likely a muslim Whoa. That sounds like a nasty slur. You can't do that here.

negamax 11y ago

As an Indian living in Europe, I disagree with you about Indians not being integrated. Well, depends on which part TBH as Europe is so different depending on the direction. But I have no issues whatsoever in Ireland. and have friends from all over.

fit2rule 11y ago

>I can't put my finger on what it is that is a problem though. IMHO, the problem is language - i.e. immigrants speak theirs, and natives 'speak theirs'. Natives are unwilling to allow another language into their lives, whereas immigrants are forced to learn another language in order to survive - in both cases, it is a lot of work to learn a new language. I wish it were compulsory to learn at least 2 foreign languages in European countries - sure, there is the defacto 'English as a second language' standard, which has produced a lot of tolerance in previously warring societies, it has to be admitted - but wouldn't it be great if we all were encouraged, somehow, to .. say .. learn Farsi .. as a means of solving the big European problem of integration, immigration, and internationalization? I mean, it really only makes sense for the Western European powers to promote polyglotism given our current circumstances. I think I'd be happier about immigration if my kids grew up learning the language of the immigrants in our land, alongside their native tongue, anyway .. I'll be doing my best to encourage my kids to learn languages of the immigrants during the course of their lives.

morgante 11y ago
If you're moving to live in a new country, it seems pretty sensible that you should have to learn the language of your new home.
- fit2rule 11y ago
  Sure, you should 'have to' .. anything less would be tantamount to accepting a major cultural shift akin to warfare. But then again, I think there is a lot of room for people to accept social responsibility for the human issue of immigration, and I think any social system which encourages people to learn languages outside their own is bound to produce a more tolerant, resilient society. Right now, so much hate and prejudice is predicated on the assumption that "they don't speak our language" .. if, for example, it were considered highly illegal to ever go to war against someone whose language you cannot speak, this would be a better state of affairs. "Kill no man whose language you have not learned" might be the mantra I'm going for here ..