5 ms·

Rousey won't fight Fox Fallon, a transgender female MMA fight who went through puberty as a man, so Rousey herself recognizes men have a biological advantage in

Rousey won't fight Fox Fallon, a transgender female MMA fight who went through puberty as a man, so Rousey herself recognizes men have a biological advantage in the sport.

pyre 11y ago
> went through puberty as a man > men have a biological advantage I'm curious what biological advantage going through puberty as a male imparts that going through HRT doesn't take away.
- forrestthewoods 11y ago
  Our bodies are a hell of a lot more complicated than just adding some hormones here and blocking some hormones there.
  - pyre 11y ago
    That may be, but at the same time I would think there are only a limited amount of things that would affect your performance in the ring, at least to a significant effect.
- mcantelon 11y ago
  It sounds like that's an area of study that's not completely clear, but that height and muscle mass seem to be retained advantages. http://fightmedicine.net/uncategorized/a-medical-and-scientific-analysis-of-transgender-mma-fighters-do-they-have-an-advantage http://fightmedicine.net/uncategorized/a-medical-and-scienti... >The effects of hormonal therapy over time, in this case testosterone deprivation and estrogen supplementation, are not completely understood. However, what is clear is that transgender individuals that underwent surgery after puberty will retain some male features, such as increased height. Male–>Female transgender patients tend to retain more muscle mass than female–>male transgender patients gain, suggesting that some gender-specific attributes remain. Whether effects such as height will prove beneficial in MMA like they do in other sports such as basketball remains to be seen. Another question is if the fighter is completely transgendered. Taking estrogens without castration will leak out testosterone that can maintain muscle mass. Furthermore, how much estrogen is being taken? If it’s not enough, then muscle strength can be closer to male levels
  - pyre 11y ago
    > Furthermore, how much estrogen is being taken? If it’s not enough, then muscle strength can be closer to male levels But this is something that can be measured and has less to do with the fact that the HRT happened after puberty.
- oh_sigh 11y ago
  Bone density for one
  - pyre 11y ago
    How important is bone density though? Do we measure bone density of males, and exclude those who hit the genetic lottery and have super high bone density? In the male league, do some fighters get to refuse to fight others based on bone density differences? I'm thinking not, which is why this restriction seems artificial, sort of like grasping for straws to find a difference (though I'm open to being proven wrong).
bmelton 11y ago
I conceded that men do have an advantage. I don't know whether or not Fox does or doesn't, but men, generally speaking, have an advantage in a full-body sport like MMA. That does not discount that there are men currently competing in MMA that Rousey has a realistic and good shot at actually beating. The average man has weight and musculature advantages over Ronda in the same way that Ken Shamrock, Grizzly Pardoel and Patrick Smith have weight and musculature advantages over Royce Gracie. Despite that, Royce has beaten them all.
- zarkov99 11y ago
  Gracie did this at a time when no one understood BJJ. When that advantage was removed, as when he fought Matt Hughes, he was completely dominated. You will no get anywhere these days on pure technique. You also have to be a very gifted athlete. Ronda would be destroyed by any male in the UFC or Bellator for that matter, regardless of weight class.
  - bmelton 11y ago
    To be fair, there are still people Royce Gracie could beat in UFC. Not everybody has mastered BJJ defenses, and it isn't a "solved" problem set. Matt Hughes was one of the best in the world, and much more in his prime than Gracie for that fight, and also a student of BJJ. Yes, men have a distinct and pronounced advantage against any woman, but I flatly reject the notion that any amateur MMA practitioner could best her in the ring, especially given the breadth of talent in MMA. Watch any UFC prelim, and I guarantee that you'd find at least a couple of guys who you'd certainly bet money to lose against Ronda. Beyond that, there are top guys that don't have a good defense against BJJ, and they're often matched up against like competitors for showmanship, and if you think there's no way she could sink an armbar on any of them, I just flat out think you're wrong.
    - petegrif 11y ago
      It is nowadays pretty much a 'solved problem' for any remotely serious MMA fighter and that means anyone in UFC.
duckdealer 11y ago
I agreed that men generally have a biological advantage but some real reasons Ronda won't fight Fallon Fox are: she fights at featherweight, she is not in the UFC, she is an obscure fighter that has only fought very low level opponents in small organizations, and she is just not a good fighter at all.

Rousey won't fight Fox Fallon, a transgender female MMA fight who went through puberty as a man, so Rousey herself recognizes men have a biological advantage in the sport.

pyre 11y ago

> went through puberty as a man > men have a biological advantage I'm curious what biological advantage going through puberty as a male imparts that going through HRT doesn't take away.

forrestthewoods 11y ago
Our bodies are a hell of a lot more complicated than just adding some hormones here and blocking some hormones there.
- pyre 11y ago
  That may be, but at the same time I would think there are only a limited amount of things that would affect your performance in the ring, at least to a significant effect.
mcantelon 11y ago
It sounds like that's an area of study that's not completely clear, but that height and muscle mass seem to be retained advantages. http://fightmedicine.net/uncategorized/a-medical-and-scientific-analysis-of-transgender-mma-fighters-do-they-have-an-advantage http://fightmedicine.net/uncategorized/a-medical-and-scienti... >The effects of hormonal therapy over time, in this case testosterone deprivation and estrogen supplementation, are not completely understood. However, what is clear is that transgender individuals that underwent surgery after puberty will retain some male features, such as increased height. Male–>Female transgender patients tend to retain more muscle mass than female–>male transgender patients gain, suggesting that some gender-specific attributes remain. Whether effects such as height will prove beneficial in MMA like they do in other sports such as basketball remains to be seen. Another question is if the fighter is completely transgendered. Taking estrogens without castration will leak out testosterone that can maintain muscle mass. Furthermore, how much estrogen is being taken? If it’s not enough, then muscle strength can be closer to male levels
- pyre 11y ago
  > Furthermore, how much estrogen is being taken? If it’s not enough, then muscle strength can be closer to male levels But this is something that can be measured and has less to do with the fact that the HRT happened after puberty.
oh_sigh 11y ago
Bone density for one
- pyre 11y ago
  How important is bone density though? Do we measure bone density of males, and exclude those who hit the genetic lottery and have super high bone density? In the male league, do some fighters get to refuse to fight others based on bone density differences? I'm thinking not, which is why this restriction seems artificial, sort of like grasping for straws to find a difference (though I'm open to being proven wrong).

bmelton 11y ago

I conceded that men do have an advantage. I don't know whether or not Fox does or doesn't, but men, generally speaking, have an advantage in a full-body sport like MMA. That does not discount that there are men currently competing in MMA that Rousey has a realistic and good shot at actually beating. The average man has weight and musculature advantages over Ronda in the same way that Ken Shamrock, Grizzly Pardoel and Patrick Smith have weight and musculature advantages over Royce Gracie. Despite that, Royce has beaten them all.

zarkov99 11y ago
Gracie did this at a time when no one understood BJJ. When that advantage was removed, as when he fought Matt Hughes, he was completely dominated. You will no get anywhere these days on pure technique. You also have to be a very gifted athlete. Ronda would be destroyed by any male in the UFC or Bellator for that matter, regardless of weight class.
- bmelton 11y ago
  To be fair, there are still people Royce Gracie could beat in UFC. Not everybody has mastered BJJ defenses, and it isn't a "solved" problem set. Matt Hughes was one of the best in the world, and much more in his prime than Gracie for that fight, and also a student of BJJ. Yes, men have a distinct and pronounced advantage against any woman, but I flatly reject the notion that any amateur MMA practitioner could best her in the ring, especially given the breadth of talent in MMA. Watch any UFC prelim, and I guarantee that you'd find at least a couple of guys who you'd certainly bet money to lose against Ronda. Beyond that, there are top guys that don't have a good defense against BJJ, and they're often matched up against like competitors for showmanship, and if you think there's no way she could sink an armbar on any of them, I just flat out think you're wrong.
  - petegrif 11y ago
    It is nowadays pretty much a 'solved problem' for any remotely serious MMA fighter and that means anyone in UFC.

duckdealer 11y ago

I agreed that men generally have a biological advantage but some real reasons Ronda won't fight Fallon Fox are: she fights at featherweight, she is not in the UFC, she is an obscure fighter that has only fought very low level opponents in small organizations, and she is just not a good fighter at all.